Where to get ELMA cleaning machine restoration help?

[Bigjay]

Hi all, I have just bagged myself an elma super elite cleaning machine at a recent auction and will be picking it up in the morning, but it is in need of some restoration, safety checking and testing.  There is a jar missing along with the baskets and cradle and would really like to get it properly restored.  I have no idea who to ask to do the work and its beyond my level of competence.  I live in Hertfordshire in UK.  Any suggestions as to the type of tradesperson who would be most suitable or recommendations in my area?   Thanks in advance.  Jason.

 

Edited November 7, 2024 by Bigjay
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[AndyGSi]

I wouldn't expect anyone would be willing to restore this apart from doing it for themselves.

I know if I were doing it the labour would outweigh the value.

Edited November 7, 2024 by AndyGSi

[caseback]

I don't think dismantling, cleaning, painting, rewiring and assembling requires a higher skill level than performing a basic service on a mechanical watch. It's no rocket science, really. My advise: make sure to take plenty of puctures and just do it. There are some video's on youtube on the subject as well. Like this one:

If you want to outsource this work and buy the missing parts, it will be a very expensive piece of kit.

Edited November 7, 2024 by caseback

[AndyGSi]

15 minutes ago, caseback said:

I don't think dismantling, cleaning, painting, rewiring and assembling requires a higher skill level than performing a basic service on a mechanical watch. It's no rocket science, really. My advise: make sure to take plenty of puctures and just do it. There are some video's on youtube on the subject as well. Like this one:

If you want to outsource this work and buy the missing parts, it will be a very expensive piece of kit.

That's working on the principal that the heater and motor at least operate.

[caseback]

9 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

That's working on the principal that the heater and motor at least operate.

Yep. But if the heater doesn't work, it's easy to replace it with a ptc heating element  If the motor is not working as well  .....  it might be better to go find a working (and complete) machine instead.

[Bigjay]

10 hours ago, caseback said:

I don't think dismantling, cleaning, painting, rewiring and assembling requires a higher skill level than performing a basic service on a mechanical watch. It's no rocket science, really. My advise: make sure to take plenty of puctures and just do it. There are some video's on youtube on the subject as well. Like this one:

If you want to outsource this work and buy the missing parts, it will be a very expensive piece of kit.

Ok, so I could probably disassemble and repaint it but I would not tackle the rewiring and be confident that it was safe.  If the heater and motor needed testing or replacing, again, not something I would be confident doing.

i knew i’d have to buy new parts for the missing items but got it cheap enough to cover that considering what people are charging on ebay for complete working machines that they claim would still need rewiring.

Surely, to outsource a rewire would not be that expensive? 

[AndyGSi]

51 minutes ago, Bigjay said:

Surely, to outsource a rewire would not be that expensive? 

Without actually having it in front of me I'd say £300 to £500.

[Bigjay]

5 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

Without actually having it in front of me I'd say £300 to £500.

Wow!  That much?  Although from the photo i’d say it has more modern wiring cables that the originals.  Im picking it up in a couple of hours,  i’ll post an update

[Bigjay]

12 hours ago, Bigjay said:

Wow!  That much?  Although from the photo i’d say it has more modern wiring cables that the originals.  Im picking it up in a couple of hours,  i’ll post an update

Sooooo…. Picked it up, no plug on it so couldn’t test it and worryingly some cowboy had extended the power lead using two different cables.  Im no electrician but looks dangerous to me… so now doubting if it is a runner at all!!

Just now, Bigjay said:

Sooooo…. Picked it up, no plug on it so couldn’t test it and worryingly some cowboy had extended the power lead using two different cables.  Im no electrician but looks dangerous to me… so now doubting if it is a runner at all!!

The timer doesn’t work properly so removed it to look inside and found to my surprise that it just like a mechanical watch!  Now, I am very new to this hobby and I couldn’t work out why it feels jammed and so tight.  It runs for a few seconds and then stops.  Any help would be really appreciated.  Daren’t disassemble it without guidance.  It seems to have two main springs and the balance runs but stops again after a while and the timer won’t countdown.  
Feel like I’ve bitten off more than I can chew and having buyers regret despite loving having the machine.

I dont know if anyone thinks the wiring inside the switch housing lokks dodgy as it looks like it has been replaced from the original.

 

 

[AndyGSi]

Not sure what flex has been used to extend the cable or how it was wired at the plug but from the
below from another website (trusting these colours are OK) it looks like the N & E were swapped.

Should be simple enough to bell out and check.

[mbwatch]

That is a Junghans logo on the back of the timer movement and I would bet the mechanism is very similar to the many old Junghans alarm clocks, should any spare parts be needed or you wish to practice on one.

You might take this over to the All Things Clocks area of the forum for some quick pointers or reviving a gummed up clock. Since this is not a precision timekeeper, simply giving the whole assembled movement a bath in a solvent and some fresh clock oil on the pivots might be all it needs.

Edited November 9, 2024 by mbwatch

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

Not sure what flex has been used to extend the cable or how it was wired at the plug but from the
below from another website (trusting these colours are OK) it looks like the N & E were swapped.

Should be simple enough to bell out and check.

Surely this isn't the wiring diagram for the machine bought Andy. Theres not a single correct connection to that extension. 

Bigjay.....make sure you trace those wires through the machine and label them up with our current cable colours. Or rip it all out and start again,  regardless of what you do plug it into a circuit with rcd protection please.

[AndyGSi]

5 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Surely this isn't the wiring diagram for the machine bought Andy. Theres not a single correct connection to that extension. 

It all depends how it was wired at the plug but expect that's why it's been sold as the
seller made presumptions based on the wire colours and couldn't get it to work.

Edit

Looking at the video my major concern over the wiring would be that the earth just appears to be connected to the rheostat.

Edited November 9, 2024 by AndyGSi

[GPrideaux]

17 hours ago, Bigjay said:

I dont know if anyone thinks the wiring inside the switch housing lokks dodgy as it looks like it has been replaced from the original.

It's hard to be sure just from photos, but to me the termination of the yellow-insulated wires inside the housing looks fine. Not the cable joins, though. I'd replace the whole mains cable with a new one of suitable length.

You need an electrician. If you don't know an electrician, ask around your local friends and family; there's a good chance someone will. Even if you do the wiring yourself you should have an electrician check it for the integrity of the insulation, etc.

If the motor does not work, or works intermittently, it might just need new brushes, as these are designed to wear and be replaced. Again, your friendly electrician should be able to help you.

[Neverenoughwatches]

Its a fair bet to assume the plug wiring has been done correctly for the old UK  colour codes, which might result in live feed to the casing,  oh my !

Anyone would just label up the machine's wiring correctly , wouldn't they ?

[AndyGSi]

11 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Its a fair bet to assume the plug wiring has been done correctly for the old UK  colour codes, which might result in live feed to the casing,  oh my !

Anyone would just label up the machine's wiring correctly , wouldn't they ?

If the plug was wired as Red-Live & Black-Neutral as the Red only goes to the rheostat
then yes I'd expect at least the top part where it's fitted to have potentially been live.

In the past nothing was labelled and there was no standard for colours.

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

If the plug was wired as Red-Live & Black-Neutral as the Red only goes to the rheostat
then yes I'd expect at least the top part where it's fitted to have potentially been live.

In the past nothing was labelled and there was no standard for colours.

An experienced electrician would know exactly which wire goes where. Which leaves diyers in a potentially dangerous position. What does it take to slide some coloured sleeves over the wiring, might just save someone's life.

[AndyGSi]

13 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

An experienced electrician would know exactly which wire goes where.

Yes you'd expect that but it ain't always the case.

In the past we built control panels with an Incoming Isolator so you've got a Brown and
Blue wire on the top and the 'Electrician' needs to connect their wires to the bottom.

The amount of calls we had asking which wire goes where was unbelievable
so now we have to wire the bottom of the Isolator to terminals marked L&N

[RichardHarris123]

4 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

Yes you'd expect that but it ain't always the case.

Unfortunately you're correct, a electrical lecturer who also taught electrical engineering called most sparkies "wire men"  they knew how to run wires but little else. 

Many years ago when I was an apprentice plumber, I fit a electrical water heater, an electrician was coming out to wire it. I was called back the day after due to a fault, he had wired the immersion heater directly to the electrodes, bypassing the thermostat, so the water was boiling.  Even I knew the correct way to wire it.

[AndyGSi]

I know this has gone off subject but the latest wiring regs don't help. 

Edit

We still use Red & Black for DC Wiring and if some of our Standard Panels we just
use Black for everything which forces anyone working in them to check properly.

Edited November 9, 2024 by AndyGSi

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

I know this has gone off subject but the latest wiring regs don't help. 

Edit

We still use Red & Black for DC Wiring and if some of our Standard Panels we just
use Black for everything which forces anyone working in them to check properly.

I wonder if that makes diyers stop and think " i dont know what goes where....I'll get a sparky to look at it " ?.......not always

[Bigjay]

I think i’m definitely going to get it all taken out and find someone to rewire it for me.  I can cope with the cosmetics but the electrics im not willing to risk!! I’m so desperate to have a working machine… i love this hobby! 

[AndyGSi]

41 minutes ago, Bigjay said:

I think i’m definitely going to get it all taken out and find someone to rewire it for me.  I can cope with the cosmetics but the electrics im not willing to risk!! I’m so desperate to have a working machine… i love this hobby! 

Don't just strip it all out as whoever you get to rewire it should want everything still in situ.

Please also make sure that they check and earth each individual metal part that needs it.

53 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I wonder if that makes diyers stop and think " i dont know what goes where....I'll get a sparky to look at it " ?.......not always

Purely industrial so no diyers should be anywhere near them.

[caseback]

There was a discussion on wiring these Elma's and wire colours a few months ago:

 

Edited November 9, 2024 by caseback

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, caseback said:

There was a discussion on wiring these Elma's and wire colours a few months ago:

 

Be wary that the red wire is earth classic, i think the OP would be wise to leave well alone.