Hairspring diagnosis Guba 1050

[donutdan]

Hi, I'm at my wits end with this watch and can't seem to figure out what to do. I was hoping someone more qualified might be able to provide some assistance. 

I've been working on a Guba 1050 movement that had issues keeping a good rate in vertical positions and noticed that the hairspring was slightly bent. It looked like it was squished to one side at rest while the opposite side was slightly stretched out. 

I was able to bend out these differences until the hairspring looked concentric but upon putting the balance back, the hairspring was out of flat and slightly conical. I also noticed that the inner hairspring was touching the regulator pins when installed on the balance cock making it seem like the spring had too large of a diameter.

I then removed the hairspring from the balance entirely to check the shape again in more detail but I can't find any issues. The hairspring is completely flat on my workspace and concentric as before.

Any advice on how to proceed? Thank you in advance!

Edited August 19, 2024 by donutdan

[gpraceman]

I'm no expert on hairsprings but if it looks flat off of the balance cock but conical when on the balance cock, I would think that you have a twist somewhere, maybe near the stud.  Maybe mount it to the cock but not onto the balance wheel and see if the hairspring hangs parallel to the cock.

Edited August 19, 2024 by gpraceman

[SwissSeiko]

Make sure when you reinstall the balance on the watch, you loosen the screw that holds the balance stud in place to let it work itself flat. As far as the spring touching the regulator pins, you can slightly open the pins and move the regulator arm through its range of motion, and make sure it doesn't touch the hairspring at all. But I think it may just be the stud is mounted too high in the regulator arm

[donutdan]

Thank you both for the suggestions, you were right on the money about your diagnoses.

I found that the regulator stud was installed too deep and pushing it down a little reduced the conical shape. Additionally, I applied a little twist near the stud as well which helped. Looking at it from the side, I can see that the hairspring moves back and forth between the regulator pins as desired.

The watch is back to ticking with ~= 300 degrees amplitude. I think there are still a few issues relating to the hairspring but I don't really want to lose my progress thus far.

[nevenbekriev]

The only thing that is possible to see on picture (of the hairspring only) is that the outer coil needs to be a little away from the rest of the spring in order to avoid touching the inner part to the regulator pin. Otherwise everything is OK. BUT put the spring on the cock (without balance) and only then You will see how to manipulate the place where the spring gets out from the stud to position the spring correctly - flat to the cock, the collet exactly above the stones and moving the regulator not changing the position of the spring.

Edited August 19, 2024 by nevenbekriev

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 hours ago, gpraceman said:

I'm no expert on hairsprings but if it looks flat off of the balance cock but conical when on the balance cock, I would think that you have a twist somewhere, maybe near the stud.  Maybe mount it to the cock but not onto the balance wheel and see if the hairspring hangs parallel to the cock.

Forgive for me for saying but i find this doesn't often help, the weight of the collet if heavy can pull the hairspring down a lot,making it difficult to determine if it looks out of flat because of twists. Holding the cock vertical helps but not much. Better way is to fit balance on to a truing tool so the stud can be observed or the collet onto a broach providing the stud is removable for a particular movement. 

21 hours ago, donutdan said:

Hi, I'm at my wits end with this watch and can't seem to figure out what to do. I was hoping someone more qualified might be able to provide some assistance. 

I've been working on a Guba 1050 movement that had issues keeping a good rate in vertical positions and noticed that the hairspring was slightly bent. It looked like it was squished to one side at rest while the opposite side was slightly stretched out. 

I was able to bend out these differences until the hairspring looked concentric but upon putting the balance back, the hairspring was out of flat and slightly conical. I also noticed that the inner hairspring was touching the regulator pins when installed on the balance cock making it seem like the spring had too large of a diameter.

I then removed the hairspring from the balance entirely to check the shape again in more detail but I can't find any issues. The hairspring is completely flat on my workspace and concentric as before.

Any advice on how to proceed? Thank you in advance!

Viewing the hairspring in isolation, it can look just fine, bear in mind that it is not held in any way, both the stud and collet are free. When those are in position twists/bends at either end act on the hairspring's shape. Most commonly is a fault at the stud, as this end is handled more frequently than the collet end, hence disruption and damage happens here more often.

Twists and bends at the stud are better handled for me, while the balance is installed. Corrections can be assessed instantly, often a tool needs making to suit the access available around the stud carrier.

10 hours ago, SwissSeiko said:

Make sure when you reinstall the balance on the watch, you loosen the screw that holds the balance stud in place to let it work itself flat. As far as the spring touching the regulator pins, you can slightly open the pins and move the regulator arm through its range of motion, and make sure it doesn't touch the hairspring at all. But I think it may just be the stud is mounted too high in the regulator arm

for the stud height in it's carrier, the pinning points collet to stud need to be in plane with each other .

If the hairspring itself is flat the stud height is determined by the collet.

[gpraceman]

9 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Forgive for me for saying but i find this doesn't often help, the weight of the collet if heavy can pull the hairspring down a lot,making it difficult to determine if it looks out of flat because of twists. Holding the cock vertical helps but not much. Better way is to fit balance on to a truing tool so the stud can be observed or the collet onto a broach providing the stud is removable for a particular movement.

I'm still rather new to working on hairsprings.  Of the hairsprings that I have handled so far, I hadn't noticed the coning of the hairspring, due to the weight of the collet, when picking up the stud by tweezers.  But my sample size is small.  I do see your point, however.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, gpraceman said:

I'm still rather new to working on hairsprings.  Of the hairsprings that I have handled so far, I hadn't noticed the coning of the hairspring, due to the weight of the collet, when picking up the stud by tweezers.  But my sample size is small.  I do see your point, however.

Not so much the coning of the hairspring,  that can be determined with the hairspring in isolation on a flat surface.  When trying to figure out if the hairspring is twisted right at the stud which can pull the hairspring from flat when the balance is installed, its best to view the stud with the hairspring mounted on something pick-upable rather than looking at the hairspring when the stud is held as would be the case when fitted to the cock laid on the bench, the weight of the collet can pull the hairspring downwards sometimes causing the misconception of a twist at the stud. When the stud is fitted to the cock for viewing out of round coils and for centralisation of the collet over the balance jewel then this check works fine for determining flat bends ( twists are different) at the stud. Just think of the spring being held at each of it's ends and how it's shape would react when those mounting points are bent and or twisted. Keep in mind the same can happen at the collet just generally not so common.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Not so much the coning of the hairspring,  that can be determined with the hairspring in isolation

The unfortunate problem of the hairspring is a problem in the watch and typically we get to see the hairspring out of the watch where most of the time it's just fine.