Going out of mind here with low amplitude on a 7s26 and can't fathom why. ANY suggestions for fault finding would be great. I'm ready to throw in the towel.

[mikepilk]

I'm having a look at an old 7s26A movement I have for parts. Looking in to the gear train, there's very little clearance between the third and fourth (centre seconds) wheels. I don't know the history of this movement, but there's far too much end shake on the third, fourth and escape wheels. I can move the third and fourth wheels so that they touch - which would kill amplitude as the fourth is driving the escape wheel. What are your end shakes like?

[Birbdad]

23 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

You're having a tough time with this one Col, maybe take a break from it for a while. It ain't going anywhere its problems will still be there for you to solve another day. I find the harder i try the worse things become, i take a break come back and start from scratch sometimes months later, that isn't giving up , its coming back with a fresh head to a fresh problem with a different mindset,  and hopefully a little bit wiser.

Sadly that's not how my brain works haha. If i put my mind to do something i will go nuts till i do it. It's even worse when it's something i know i can do that just isn't working

That said I have an update below but not getting my hopes super high up.

20 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

What will be nice to see with all your springs would be out of the barrel laying on the table. In other words visually how do they look? We don't get specifications for the curvature the spring and a very interesting back curves and some of the Springs have can produce some really interesting power curves. Plus if any of the Springs were set and yes modern white Springs can be set that's going to produce a bad power curve

One of the problems and watch repair is seeing things. In other words taking a break would be a good idea approach it a week or so later. Then with a fresh look maybe you'll see something You currently don't see because your brain isn't going to let you see it at all.

I can show one of them. I'll try to remember to take a photo tomorrow. These were new springs that were taken in and out of barrels at least a few times. I've been wondering if that can actually damage or weaken a modern spring. I also may or may not have had a mishap with the mainspring winder on both of them but they still looked about the same as when they were brand new so i just made em flat again and reused them. They're SO tight on the arbor getting the arbor of the winder out without pulling the spring out is incredibly difficult.

18 hours ago, SwissSeiko said:

Some watches are just problem makers. I wouldn't get too hung up on amplitude. I know its an important number, but focusing solely on it and trying to crank out every bit of it will drive you mad, as you're experiencing. I will say, the 7S26 movement is a bit of a strange one compared to swiss movements that have the standard train of wheels, so its a bit more difficult to diagnose. But I have a few tricks.

 

Is this part of the center wheel ok? try running the movement without the center wheel and see what your amplitude is.

 

And also, this one is a bit strange, but its tripped me up on seikos before. Can you remove the magic lever and wheel and see if that improves amplitude? These have gotten out of mesh for me before and have caused me problems. I don't know if it will help, but worth a try!

I've tried two fourth wheels, one being literally unused so I think it's safe to assume that area is fine. 

And interesting on the magic leaver. Unsure how that would affect amplitude but if my latest go fails i'll give it a shot.

 

As for the "Don't worry about amplitude thing." I'm REALLY trying to improve my service quality. I just feel like i wont' ever learn if i can't get the same amplitude from a watch that it had when i took it apart and usually this is not a struggle at all! With this one though i'm thinking 260 at full wind will probably be my cutoff. I won't be happy about that but if i can get that i'm gonna just get this damn thing back on my wrist.

18 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I'm having a look at an old 7s26A movement I have for parts. Looking in to the gear train, there's very little clearance between the third and fourth (centre seconds) wheels. I don't know the history of this movement, but there's far too much end shake on the third, fourth and escape wheels. I can move the third and fourth wheels so that they touch - which would kill amplitude as the fourth is driving the escape wheel. What are your end shakes like?

Endshake is tough cuz i never really have a frame of reference. They SEEM normal for the movement. 

That is something i can definitely check which i shall do tomorrow if this doesn't work. 
 

LATEST UPDATE: I put a not very old stock seiko mainspring in scavenged from another watch and my amplitude got as high as 250 at one point but mostly hovers around hte high 230's. Keep in mind this is on a watch that i've taken apart a dozen times, did a slapdash escapement lube, basically it's lubed just for trouble shooting. I"m hoping this will solve it once it's cleaned and freshly oiled. I'll keep you guys posted.

If this DOES solve it i'll recap all the weird random stuff that went wrong here for future reference to the rest of the forum.

Edited August 17, 2024 by Birbdad

[mikepilk]

The fact that the amplitude seems to be jumping all over the place, suggests it could be endshake - with the wheels moving around and possible touching. 
The way I judge endshake, is to assume it's about the same as the thickness of the pivot. Too much and you get can get variable amplitudes like you are getting.

If you can get a steady 240° and more than 180° after 24h, I would then wear it for a while to see how well it keeps time.  I have some Seiko's where I have really struggled to get above 220-230°, and in the end decided it was OK. 

As @JohnR725 keeps pointing out, it's nice to have high amplitude, but not critical for good timekeeping. Look at the amplitude requirement for an Omega 560 (similar sized automatic) after 24h : 160° !!

Interestingly, here are a couple of pics from the WatchGuy, who usually gets good amplitude when he services watches https://watchguy.co.uk/cgi-bin/library?action=show_brand&brand=Seiko

For a 7s26A, 232°

and a 7s26B 231°

 

[RichardHarris123]

Since the strength of the spring affects the amplitude, strong spring less amplitude, I would suspect side shake or pallet lock. The extra power forcing the wheel/ wheels to one side and maybe rubbing. 

[Birbdad]

1 hour ago, mikepilk said:

The fact that the amplitude seems to be jumping all over the place, suggests it could be endshake - with the wheels moving around and possible touching. 
The way I judge endshake, is to assume it's about the same as the thickness of the pivot. Too much and you get can get variable amplitudes like you are getting.

If you can get a steady 240° and more than 180° after 24h, I would then wear it for a while to see how well it keeps time.  I have some Seiko's where I have really struggled to get above 220-230°, and in the end decided it was OK. 

As @JohnR725 keeps pointing out, it's nice to have high amplitude, but not critical for good timekeeping. Look at the amplitude requirement for an Omega 560 (similar sized automatic) after 24h : 160° !!

Interestingly, here are a couple of pics from the WatchGuy, who usually gets good amplitude when he services watches https://watchguy.co.uk/cgi-bin/library?action=show_brand&brand=Seiko

For a 7s26A, 232°

and a 7s26B 231°

 

Yeah i get it. Still though where it starts and ends for me is i'm highly skeptical that any MAJOR problem like endshake arose since i took apart the movement. It had 270 and ran great when i took it apart. ALl i did was clean and service as i normally do, tried out the generic mainspring you recommended (I'm going to try the 2378XX instead of the 2377XX at a later time and i'll report back. I have one on hand but it's for my bellmatic which is a future project.). I've substituted every part from the barrel, arbor, fourth wheel third wheel, escape wheel, pallet fork and balance and got basiclaly no effect on any health of the watch which i think is a testament to seikos manufacturing tolerances as some of these parts were new, some were quite old from ancient 7s26a movements. 

 

I suppose it's possible there's endshake issues because a jewel somehow got moved? I don't know but it can't be an issue with any particular wheel as they've all been substituted out. 

I know due to the timing before i took it apart there is no reason this watch shouldn't get a solid amplitude...something is preventing it that i'm not seeing. If i just accept it as is i'll never learn what i did wrong or what random thing went wrong. 

But yes, this is my last go likely. If i can't get it a stable 250 there's a guy in one of my groups really curious to take a look at it because he knows i just don't typically struggle with it like this.

23 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Since the strength of the spring affects the amplitude, strong spring less amplitude, I would suspect side shake or pallet lock. The extra power forcing the wheel/ wheels to one side and maybe rubbing. 

So since i've subbed out every wheel for a spare including the escape wheel and tried 3 pallet forks with no change what WOULD cause endshake issues on a watch that didn't have them a month ago when i took it apart? If i've eliminated the wheels as a cause wouldn't it mean that a jewel has been pushed or something?

[JohnR725]

11 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

WOULD cause endshake issues on a watch that didn't have them a month ago when i took it apart?

How do you know it didn't have end shake issues a month ago? You should be able to look in sideways look at your wheels use something fine move them up and down and see if there really is an end shake issue or not.

With interesting here is you've replaced just about everything except the watch itself? Maybe since you have so many spare parts should replace the things you haven't replaced. Must have two or three spare watches? You can start with the upper plate and Doesn't work the lower plate at that point in time whatever plates are in between soon you'll have an all brand-new watch which hopefully will have a better amplitude?

2 hours ago, Birbdad said:

I've been wondering if that can actually damage or weaken a modern spring.

You really don't expect me to remember everything I've ever learned anywhere in the universe do you? I assume you using a mainspring winder to put them in? I don't remember if there was a specific number was too long ago but I do remember that basically you cannot keep doing this infinity amount of insertions especially with the wind or as it tends to be much harder than being in the barrel itself. Also you need to be inspecting the mainspring for problems.

This applies to Omega watches but the same general rules should apply

 

And yes you really can feel imperfections in the mainspring especially if your winders are not quite the right size that's when you're going to have distortion issues.

Oh and what exactly have you not be placed in this watch Yet

2 hours ago, Birbdad said:

As for the "Don't worry about amplitude thing." I'm REALLY trying to improve my service quality. I just feel like i wont' ever learn if i can't get the same amplitude from a watch that it had when i took it apart and usually this is not a struggle at all! With this one though i'm thinking 260 at full wind will probably be my cutoff. I won't be happy about that but if i can get that i'm gonna just get this damn thing back on my wrist.

I assume you're following a proper timing procedure? Even for Seiko when you wind the watch fully up you let it run a certain quantity of time 15 minutes works good then what is the amplitude and also you want to do it in more than dial down like crown down as a good position typically Seiko's are done in three positions. Then of course silly Seiko they now give us a lift angle for the newest watches but conveniently forget to mention what the amplitude is. But yes if you measure the amplitude before you really should get something similar afterwords and if you're not well then yes there can be an issue. On the other hand issue might just be that you didn't service it exactly the way the watch was before? Conceivably that could even include lubrication choices.

 

 

 

 

 

[Birbdad]

13 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

How do you know it didn't have end shake issues a month ago? You should be able to look in sideways look at your wheels use something fine move them up and down and see if there really is an end shake issue or not.

 

First of all thanks for the reference images. Saved! Whether there's an endshake issue or not that was preexisting, it wasn't cratering my amplitude in the dial positions at least. IF endshake is causing me to get only 170 to 230 in the dial positions that has to be new.

13 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

With interesting here is you've replaced just about everything except the watch itself? Maybe since you have so many spare parts should replace the things you haven't replaced. Must have two or three spare watches? You can start with the upper plate and Doesn't work the lower plate at that point in time whatever plates are in between soon you'll have an all brand-new watch which hopefully will have a better amplitude?

So i actually i don't believe have a compatible mainplate to try swapping that out. I MIGHT though. I'm unsure of the compatability of the mainplate and train bridge. The mainplate isn't listed on the parts compatibility spreadsheet but the train bridge is listed as three separate parts numbers for the three versions of this movement which typically means not compatible.  

13 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

You really don't expect me to remember everything I've ever learned anywhere in the universe do you? I assume you using a mainspring winder to put them in? I don't remember if there was a specific number was too long ago but I do remember that basically you cannot keep doing this infinity amount of insertions especially with the wind or as it tends to be much harder than being in the barrel itself. Also you need to be inspecting the mainspring for problems.

This applies to Omega watches but the same general rules should apply

 

And yes you really can feel imperfections in the mainspring especially if your winders are not quite the right size that's when you're going to have distortion issues.

Oh and what exactly have you not be placed in this watch Yet

WHen i have done all this stuff to get to a point to see where my amp is all i put in is the crown and keyless works and the power train, escapement and balance. My general procedure is I do that, let it sit for half a day and settle into the service, if my amp is 270 or around there in the dial positions i check the crown positions for any surprises, if i find none i let it run overnight, demagnetize it then do my final adjustment to the balance and etachrons and timings. 

13 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I assume you're following a proper timing procedure? Even for Seiko when you wind the watch fully up you let it run a certain quantity of time 15 minutes works good then what is the amplitude and also you want to do it in more than dial down like crown down as a good position typically Seiko's are done in three positions. Then of course silly Seiko they now give us a lift angle for the newest watches but conveniently forget to mention what the amplitude is. But yes if you measure the amplitude before you really should get something similar afterwords and if you're not well then yes there can be an issue. On the other hand issue might just be that you didn't service it exactly the way the watch was before? Conceivably that could even include lubrication choices.

So i actually do not use the normal oiling seiko wants on their service sheet, their oiling is strange. They want lube on the pallet fork pivots, 9010 on the escapement, hp1300 on one side of the 3rd wheel and 9010 on the other.  i do sorta the basic modern theory, probably what most people here do. 9010 on high speed wheels and hp1300 on low speed, 9415 on the escapement, grease on the keyless works and any motion works or calendar wheels or parts rubbing metal on metal. 8213 for breaking grease on the barrel walls. I've found that lowers the amp about 10 degrees but gives me a lower delta probably due to the more even lubrication on the 3rd wheel. 

I've used this technique to do my last 4 7s26 services and i've never had any problem getting at least 265 amp till now.

13 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

 

 

 

 

 

I do use a winder and the mainsprings appeared fine even after the winder mishaps that left them tied in knots if not quite flat, I then flatten them out. 

Somebody wanted pictures of these mainsprings, i'll post one tomorrow when I wake up.

 

[mikepilk]

35 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

You can start with the upper plate and Doesn't work the lower plate at that point in time whatever plates are in between

Considering all the parts you've changed, bent bridges are a possibility. If the centre wheel bridge is bent (or jewel moved) from pushing the hands on too hard, the centre wheel could be rubbing on the barrel. I took the barrel out of my spare movement, so I can't tell if the fourth wheel could hit the barrel.

[Birbdad]

2 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Considering all the parts you've changed, bent bridges are a possibility. If the centre wheel bridge is bent (or jewel moved) from pushing the hands on too hard, the centre wheel could be rubbing on the barrel. I took the barrel out of my spare movement, so I can't tell if the fourth wheel could hit the barrel.

Yeah once i get this thing back together and if it STILL doesn't work....i'm gonna start considering those options. I'm SO careful i just cannot imagine what on earth could cause that from taking the thing apart. I'm very careful but i think we're getting to the point where i gotta consider that as a possibility.

I'd swap out the center wheel but i'm fairly certain this version of the movement is not compatible with any of my spares

[mikepilk]

I've often seen the jewel on the centre wheel bridges moved from pushing the hands on. Or if the bridge is thin (e.g. ETA 2892) the bridge itself can be bent. This can allow the centre wheel to hit the barrel, or change the endshake on the fourth wheel. 

[Birbdad]

Whelp, i meticulously oiled it, REALLY took my time. It's been back together and running for about 25 minutes and  was getting about 215 in the dial positions, that's already gone up to getting 230 in the dial positions...not great. That said it's not uncommon for me to hit 240 the first night then wake up the next day to see it hitting 270 on full wind as it settles into the service. I got a feeling i won't be so lucky...and i'll probably post some pics of the gear train to see if anything looks weird to you guys and then i'll probably just give up and accept that whatever is causing this. I either don't seem to have the ability to detect it or fix it.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

Whelp, i meticulously oiled it, REALLY took my time. It's been back together and running for about 25 minutes and  was getting about 215 in the dial positions, that's already gone up to getting 230 in the dial positions...not great. That said it's not uncommon for me to hit 240 the first night then wake up the next day to see it hitting 270 on full wind as it settles into the service. I got a feeling i won't be so lucky...and i'll probably post some pics of the gear train to see if anything looks weird to you guys and then i'll probably just give up and accept that whatever is causing this. I either don't seem to have the ability to detect it or fix it.

Check those endshakes Col, i also use power reserve to base the presence of excess friction.  If the mainspring isn't fully unwinding then there is more friction than there should be providing the spring is correct and is delivering the required amount of energy.

[Birbdad]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Check those endshakes Col, i also use power reserve to base the presence of excess friction.  If the mainspring isn't fully unwinding then there is more friction than there should be providing the spring is correct and is delivering the required amount of energy.

Yup i'll check tomorrow after i see how it ends up. 

[Birbdad]

I give up. Let it run all night. Amplitude is barely cracking 200. So the highest amp i got out of this thing was with a balance and pallet fork that were literally caked with rust, now it can barely crack 200. I give up. Even if the issue is endshake i can't fix it. I have somehow utterly destroyed this movement and i have no clue how and all i did was do a basic service on it like i have almost a dozen times before. 

I"ll check endshake and post pics people requested. Maybe somebody will spot something

 

Edited August 18, 2024 by Birbdad

[Birbdad]

Couple photos of the gear train. Endshake all seems fine, nothing rubbing that i can see.

[mikepilk]

Is it possible the barrel could touch the centre or fourth wheels ?

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 hours ago, Birbdad said:

I give up. Let it run all night. Amplitude is barely cracking 200. So the highest amp i got out of this thing was with a balance and pallet fork that were literally caked with rust, now it can barely crack 200. I give up. Even if the issue is endshake i can't fix it. I have somehow utterly destroyed this movement and i have no clue how and all i did was do a basic service on it like i have almost a dozen times before. 

I"ll check endshake and post pics people requested. Maybe somebody will spot something

 

How about adding some rust back to the balance and pallet, this might be the lubrication ingredient we are all overlooking .  

Lol sorry Col bad joke, i can see you're  getting frustrated with it. 

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

Couple photos of the gear train. Endshake all seems fine, nothing rubbing that i can see.

So how free is the train spinning col ? If there is more friction than normal , you'll see some abrupt motion reduction, sometimes it can be quite subtle though to make a difference it would be quite noticable. Can you post a 30 second or so vid of you winding in some power .

[Birbdad]

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

How about adding some rust back to the balance and pallet, this might be the lubrication ingredient we are all overlooking .  

Lol sorry Col bad joke, i can see you're  getting frustrated with it. 

So how free is the train spinning col ? If there is more friction than normal , you'll see some abrupt motion reduction, sometimes it can be quite subtle though to make a difference it would be quite noticable. Can you post a 30 second or so vid of you winding in some power .

Lol, well carbon is a dry lubricant.  As for how the train is spinning, it spins...but i've NEVER gotten that backlash as we talked about and it DOES feel like it comes to a bit of an abrupt stop but that might be in my head. I"m actually cleaning a perfectly working 7s26c right now which i'm going to look at side by side for that stuff. Though it DID occur to me how often i had to give the balance a little puff to get things started. Usually these movements just start right up and the wind seemed to have to be a bit extreme to get it going on it's own otherwise. I just never really thought about it.

 

I'm honestly really starting to think that either the train bridge or the mainplate got bent...how? I literally can't imagine but it's really starting to seem like the only thing that makes a lick of sense. 

And yeah i'm damn frustrated but now that i've officially given up for the first time since i started this hobby i feel better haha. I have a REALLY junky and rusted 7s26b sitting around that i'm probably going to clean and try transfering all these parts onto it's mainplate/bridge just to trouble shoot that. 

4 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Is it possible the barrel could touch the centre or fourth wheels ?

So it SORTA Looks from the picture that the barrel is touching the center wheel bridge but i can confirm it isn't. I do not believe it's touching anything but i can't see it from all angles enough to determine that. 

Edited August 19, 2024 by Birbdad

[Neverenoughwatches]

25 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Lol, well carbon is a dry lubricant.  As for how the train is spinning, it spins...but i've NEVER gotten that backlash as we talked about and it DOES feel like it comes to a bit of an abrupt stop but that might be in my head. I"m actually cleaning a perfectly working 7s26c right now which i'm going to look at side by side for that stuff. Though it DID occur to me how often i had to give the balance a little puff to get things started. Usually these movements just start right up and the wind seemed to have to be a bit extreme to get it going on it's own otherwise. I just never really thought about it.

 

I'm honestly really starting to think that either the train bridge or the mainplate got bent...how? I literally can't imagine but it's really starting to seem like the only thing that makes a lick of sense. 

And yeah i'm damn frustrated but now that i've officially given up for the first time since i started this hobby i feel better haha. I have a REALLY junky and rusted 7s26b sitting around that i'm probably going to clean and try transfering all these parts onto it's mainplate/bridge just to trouble shoot that. 

So it SORTA Looks from the picture that the barrel is touching the center wheel bridge but i can confirm it isn't. I do not believe it's touching anything but i can't see it from all angles enough to determine that. 

Another option you could try Col, though a bit laborious,  is to try installing one train wheel at a time, checking the end and sideshake as you go. Lack of endshake is an obvious amplitude killer and can be seen on each wheel ,sideshake can be less obvious if only looking at one wheel at at a time, cumulative excess sideshake over the complete train can foul up the wheel and pinion meshing, can be difficult to pin point with it all in place , but introducing one wheel at a time makes it easier. Not just dial position checks so include crown positions.

[mikepilk]

38 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Another option you could try Col, though a bit laborious,  is to try installing one train wheel at a time, checking the end and sideshake as you go. 

That's what I do in these cases, fit one wheel at a time and check it. 

[Birbdad]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Another option you could try Col, though a bit laborious,  is to try installing one train wheel at a time, checking the end and sideshake as you go. Lack of endshake is an obvious amplitude killer and can be seen on each wheel ,sideshake can be less obvious if only looking at one wheel at at a time, cumulative excess sideshake over the complete train can foul up the wheel and pinion meshing, can be difficult to pin point with it all in place , but introducing one wheel at a time makes it easier. Not just dial position checks so include crown positions.

 

31 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

That's what I do in these cases, fit one wheel at a time and check it. 

pretty good idea. 

IT's nearly impossible to check end and side shake of some of the wheels while it's put together.

 

One thing i found a little baffling is with the entire power train in minus the escapement the TINIEST puff from my puffer would send the entire train spinning quite easily.

[SwissSeiko]

have you tried removing the automatic works? Like previously stated, that once caused me some issues and the c-clip was bent, causing the pinion to be too low.

[Birbdad]

3 minutes ago, SwissSeiko said:

have you tried removing the automatic works? Like previously stated, that once caused me some issues and the c-clip was bent, causing the pinion to be too low.

well i put in the first reduction wheel but not the second and pawl lever so there's nothing connecting to the barrel or the gear train from the one piece of automatic works that's in so i don't see how it could effect it but i can do that. 

[SwissSeiko]

3 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

well i put in the first reduction wheel but not the second and pawl lever so there's nothing connecting to the barrel or the gear train from the one piece of automatic works that's in so i don't see how it could effect it but i can do that. 

No, if you have the pawl lever and wheel off, that's pretty much all you can do. This is quite perplexing and I'm invested in finding a solution.

 

Have you tried running it completely dry, minus braking grease?

Edited August 19, 2024 by SwissSeiko

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Birbdad said:

 

pretty good idea. 

IT's nearly impossible to check end and side shake of some of the wheels while it's put together.

 

One thing i found a little baffling is with the entire power train in minus the escapement the TINIEST puff from my puffer would send the entire train spinning quite easily.

Is that in more than one position ?  its always good to check this way in some crown positions as well. That last comment you made is directing you surely.