First movement = First broken movement

[Terrinecold]

@HectorLooi Thanks. 
I do have a microscope. But no camera to show what I see in it.  You are correct that some coils overlap. In particular the outside one where thr regulator pins go  overlaps the previous one. I will try your suggestion. 
I am surprised that there is an issue with the collet as I don’t see how I would have messed that up. 
I didn’t think the impulse jewel is damaged as I can check it in the microscope. I meant that when I put the balance I am always wondering if I managed to set it correctly in relation to the fork. 

Thank you all. So I think I will take @HectorLooi advice and note that the hairspring needs fixing and go practice with my second ST36. In any case this one also has the setting lever screw broken in the setting lever. 
I think I’ll also order a dial, case, hands and strap to make a watch out of that second movement. 
I see a bunch of them on AliExpress or eBay. 
Anybody has recommendations?  

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 minutes ago, Terrinecold said:

@HectorLooi Thanks. 
I do have a microscope. But no camera to show what I see in it.  You are correct that some coils overlap. In particular the outside one where thr regulator pins go  overlaps the previous one. I will try your suggestion. 
I am surprised that there is an issue with the collet as I don’t see how I would have messed that up. 
I didn’t think the impulse jewel is damaged as I can check it in the microscope. I meant that when I put the balance I am always wondering if I managed to set it correctly in relation to the fork. 

I dont think Hector means there is an issue with the hairspring at the collet, only that the collet is not centered over the jewel hole. You can check this by unmounting the hairspring from the balance and recentering the collet with the balance jewel. If the coils remain undisturbed then i believe it unnecessary to dismount the collet and only adjustment at the stud is needed to bring the hairspring to shape. If any of coils have been accidentally bent then reshaping of hairspring separately would be required.

[nevenbekriev]

The problem is where the arrow shows.

[rjenkinsgb]

8 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I thought that was the knee bend , start of the end curve Rob

OK, apologies - I'm not familiar with all the different styles yet. The flat ones in the watches I've worked in recently don't have kink like that.

[Neverenoughwatches]

47 minutes ago, rjenkinsgb said:

OK, apologies - I'm not familiar with all the different styles yet. The flat ones in the watches I've worked in recently don't have kink like that.

I've had a few like that as well, i have even added that bend in before thinking the regulating pins would track the hairspring better. Not really sure how different the timing would be with and without it .

4 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

The problem is where the arrow shows.

Yep see it Nev , a kind of shallow bend.

[Terrinecold]

Yes thanks all. It is specially clear in the microscope now that you pointed it out

[Terrinecold]

A picture of the balance spring of the new movement. Easy to see the difference with the damaged one

[nevenbekriev]

Well, after knowing where the problem is and how it should look like, try to repair the bent one. Not so hard to do!

[Terrinecold]

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

Well, after knowing where the problem is and how it should look like, try to repair the bent one. Not so hard to do!

I’ll try as an exercise. The movement will still be broken due to the setting lever screw but if I can repair the spring I’ll be quite happy. 
BTW, I just successfully disassembled and reassembled without breaking anything the new one. Next step is going to be cleaning and lubricating which I’ll practice on the busted movement. 
I have received supplies for cleaning (IPA 99.9% and lighter fluid) I have some Moebius 8000 oil but I am waiting for some Molikote do which is supposed to arrive May 28. 

[Terrinecold]

Update on this. 
Since I now have all I need for cleaning and lubricating a movement and since it is a week end. I restarted working on this movement.  Is to practice cleaning and lubricating. But as I was doing, so I thought I might as well try to repair the hairspring.  After all, I know it is an advanced skill, but I also know I can’t really make it worse than it is.  I am happy to say I made it better enough that it now ticks. 
I can see that the spring still doesn’t have the correct geometry. I is still a bit out of plane ( I have a really hard time correcting that although I made it quite a bit better than when I started) also a bit out of round which I got better at fixing but now the out of plane part makes it harder to improve. 
 

Anyway, I decided it was as good as I could get it at this point. So I reinstalled  the balance on the balance cock.  I had a pretty hard time doing that, but it is now done and the movement is ticking.  Considering that it can never be used in a real watch due to the broken setting lever screw.  I am satisfied for now and will go on with the disassembly  cleaning reassembling and lubricating it.

Once that is done, I will do the same with the correctly working ST36. that one is supposed to end up in a watch so I hope I will not break it

Edited June 1 by Terrinecold
Corrected wedge=>watch. Mistype due to writing on a phone

[Terrinecold]

Well, disassembly went fine but I decided to disassemble the barrel. A first for me in part because I was/am afraid of the winding back into the barrel which will have to be done by hand. 
 

I should have been afraid of the disassembly. The lid popped open as well as the spring. Parts flew everywhere. I easily found the 2 parts of the barrel and the spring of course but the barrel arbor took 30mn to find. Of course after flying it had bounced of me and skidded or rolled under a stack of organizer boxes. 
 

Now I know to be more careful. 

This is what the mainspring looks like now. Did it get damaged when it sprung out of the barrel?

[nevenbekriev]

The sprIng is OK. Do You have pin wice that is able to grasp the arbor for the pivot that goes in the lid hole? If so, there is another way that I believe will be easier for You and safer for the spring to put in back in the barrel. 

The hairspring... Need pictures to tell what is needed to bring it in perfect (or at least good enough) shape. The spring was looking easy to repair, as the problem seemed to be just bent in one place. Need to know why it is out of plane - is it stretched like funnel or goes out of plane in single (or 2-3) place(s)?

[Terrinecold]

Not sure how it will show in these pictures it was easier to see when it was removed from the cock. 
The last coil is going over a bit and too much inward so it is just on top (under in the pic as the whole thing is upside down) of the one before last coil. 
 

no I do not have a pin vice. I saw someone on YouTube use a blob of Rodrick to hold onto the lid and harbor that seemed like a good way to do. 
Another option is that I was using my finger nails to pus down on the bottom of the barrel so both hands were busy but if I use brass tweezers I could push down in both sides while keeping a finger in top in case things fly. 

[nevenbekriev]

Ok, still work to do. The watch will go fast and with lo amplitude with this hairspring, But it looks easy to repair. But, please remove the balance from the cock again and show pictures where the spring is not forced by the parts where it stays in place. Make pictures too in the plain of the spring, so it will be seen the place where the coil lifts above the plain

Edited June 1 by nevenbekriev
typo

[Terrinecold]

Ok I’ll do that right now everything except balance and pallet fork is in the ultrasonic in lighter fluid. Any advice on the best way to reattach the spring. I had difficulties previously. I was following a video were the spring was first set in between the regulator pins then the cock was mounted in the plate and the stud reattached. But when I tried to do that the spring would come out of the pins immediately. So I ended up attaching the stud first then removing the cock turning it over and putting the spring in between the pins. 

[nevenbekriev]

OK, bad video... Almost all of them are.

To attach the spring (stud) to the cock:

1. Put the cock on the table top upside down.  Open the regulator if closed.

2. Put the balance on , align the stud above the hole for it in the stud carrier.

3. Help the stud to get in the hole by gentle pressing.

4. When it is in, grasp the cock with balance with tweezers (from aside, not from above), then get it between fingers, not changing the horizontal position, then tighten slightly the screw. This is the moment to correct the high position of the stud - it's top must be even with the carrier. Now tighten the screw.

5. If the outer coil is out of the regulator, move the regulator to the max to '+' position, then guide the spring to get in the regulator. Now You can return the regulator where it was and close it above the spring

[Terrinecold]

14 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

OK, bad video... Almost all of them are.

To attach the spring (stud) to the cock:

1. Put the cock on the table top upside down.  Open the regulator if closed.

2. Put the balance on , align the stud above the hole for it in the stud carrier.

3. Help the stud to get in the hole by gentle pressing.

4. When it is in, grasp the cock with balance with tweezers (from aside, not from above), then get it between fingers, not changing the horizontal position, then tighten slightly the screw. This is the moment to correct the high position of the stud - it's top must be even with the carrier. Now tighten the screw.

5. If the outer coil is out of the regulator, move the regulator to the max to '+' position, then guide the spring to get in the regulator. Now You can return the regulator where it was and close it above the spring

Sorry I am confused by step 4. Which screw?

There is the balance cock screw. I don’t think that is what you are talking about. The only other screw I see is on the side of the swan neck regulator. I do t think that is the one you are talking about either

Well I managed to make it worse again but I could take pictures. 
I had put the balance cock partially in place with one locator pin in. I wanted to remove it and I know I should use my screwdriver in the slot to move it off the pin but I didn’t l pulled wit my tweezers and it stuck then gave suddenly and was thrown a few inches away and of course the hairspring got tangled (a coil was above the cock) and untangling it from the cock deformed it. 
 

I am going to try to put it back in shape and I will likely post more pictures after shortly. I’ll wait for feedback before reattaching it to the cock

I am sorry I think I’ll give up. I was trying to remove the tangle. I had previously succeeded but now I just made more of a mess with this new tangle. 
Lf you see my spring it is now just a knot. 

Let’s keep a positive attitude. The movement was already broken. It was working but couldn’t be used. So what if it can’t run anymore… I went on and reinstalled the mainspring in the barrel by hand and managed to put the arbor back in. 
Now I need to close the thing!

 

[nevenbekriev]

Hi,

Sorry my mistaake, I didn't realise that this is copy of Etachron system. Of course, as the movement is clone of ETA movement...

What I have written concerns the regular type of stud fixation, which is common for most of the watches.

For the hairspring...

See, the condition of it is not clear, as it is tangled now. You must remove the tangle before give up. This is not so complicated when experience is present. Te most secure way is to use sharp coned tool, thin needle. Use the needle to move the tangle away from the center, to the external end. Put the tip of the needle between the coils before the tangle and turn the needle between the coils in direction that will make it go to the external end, folowing the spiral. When You get to the tangle, carefully move it little by little by the needle, untill it gets to the periphery. The last thing that must be done at the end is to guide the stud between the coil(s), for which two tweezers are needed and the balance wheel to be fixet still. One tweezer will grasp the coil(s) and strech the spring a little up, the other will get the studd and guide it under the coil(s).

You will have to learn how to manipulate the balance without damage to the hairspring. The tweezers must hold the cock in the most reliable way, and it is when the cock is in the plane of the tweezers (don't use the screw hole to put the one tip in) You can lift the cock not by screwdriver, but with one tip of the tweezers, then push that tip deep under the cock and then just grasp the cock. Squeezing the tweezers tight, with big force, is regular newbie mistake that makes the things fly away with supersonic speed.

[Terrinecold]

Thanks for the response. It makes sense. I’ll probably try to resolve the tangle next weekend. 
I am indeed a newbie and I know I shouldn’t hold the tweezers to tights. I know it both in theory and in practice but I don’t control them well enough yet. 
 

Regarding the tangle how would you hold the balance fixed?  Are there balance holders like there are movements holders?

[nevenbekriev]

No balance holders, at least I have not heard of such. You can improvize. What kind of tools You have? Show a global photo. May be some of them will do the job.