Raymon Weil Geneve Automatic Square - Rotor seems to be jumping its gears

[askme]

Newbie here.  I have an older watch that had ceased its automatic winding.  It was still under warranty and sent back to Raymond Weil for repair.  Upon return, it seems to continue having the same issue.  The Rotor is visibly loose and shakes around in the case beyond its normal spinning.  It can be heard banging against the case.  It can be seen jumping out of its gearing.  Taking it apart, it would seem that there is a missing screw in the center holding the rotor down to the rest of the mechanism.   There is a hole in the center and other Raymond Weil automatic watches (but different model) I have seen on this site (while doing research) seem to show a screw holding it down.  but...  further research on other images on the web showing my same watch also show that hole empty.  Leaving me now wondering, am I missing a screw (and how to get that screw??), or is it as designed and something else is wrong allowing it to jump its gearing?

Thanks in advance for any insights

My watch with the suspect hole:

Other Raymond Weil Automatics from Watchrepairtalk:

image scraped from the web of the same model watch:

[askme]

Still not sure what the right answer is.  I now understand that the mechanism is an ETA 2836 mechanism and all teardowns I have seen include a screw there.  Nevertheless, reseating the rotor properly seems to have solved the problem.  I knew it was reseated when it no longer is free to lift up, but held in place.  so this seems to be resolved (for now)

[eccentric59]

Actually it looks like a 2895. You can find the model number stamped into the plate right under the balance.

 

And, no, on this movement there is no center screw holding the oscillating weight onto the winding works. It's held by three small screws from the underside.

 

 

 

I can think of three scenarios where the weight on the rotor would be "sloppy". First, the three screws holding the weight to the rotor were loose. Second, the movement encountered an impact that dislodged or damaged one of the bearings in the rotor. Third The entire automatic works wasn't screwed down properly.  Those would be the three blued screws you see as you spin the rotor around.

Did RW indicate what was repaired during the warranty service?

[askme]

Thanks super helpful.  Confirmed 2836 from the markings. Found the three screws (well, found two of them) unscrewed and poking out but loose.  Worried the third is in there as well.  

RW didn't indicate what was fixed, but I should have mentioned that was a decade ago.  So I stopped plans to go back to them and then planned to get it repaired locally.  The last local watch repair guy retired.  Hence my DIY quest.

I have a sorta loup, so I will try to take the blue screws out and see where that gets me.

Are the three screws mean to hold it down standardized?  Any idea where I can get the 2836 build diagrams?  I saw them for other models, but not this.

 

On further analysis, while it says 2836 on the case, it does indeed say 2895-2 on the mechanism.  I also just saw you are in Reading PA.  Are you a pro?  In which case, maybe I can bring it to you as I am somewhat local.

 

The Kims watch repair YouTube channel has been helpful.  Followed your advice and removed the automatic winding mechanism. That has revealed the deeper issue that has prevented the watch from running.  One of the errant screws is jammed in to the gearing. 
 

 

[CYCLOPS]

time to get involved, that's what this forum is for, let the power down, lift the balance out, take the pallet out and the screw should be released to put back into it proper place, it might run fine, otherwise its a great time to service the movement...

[askme]

Removed balance. Removed pallet. Got it back together but now it doesn’t seem to want stay running:

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0f2_QO39ru9fW0x-X7pLRAGeQ

 

not sure if that is just poorly adjusted/needs lubricant/screws too tight, or if it could be something else.  Feeling I may be needing to find a pro  

 

[nevenbekriev]

You don't have power to the escape wheel. May be still jam in the train, but (a silly question) did You wingd the mainspring? When the pallet was removed, then was the time to check if everything in the train is OK. Winding then leads to all wheels spinning fast

[watchweasol]

Hi. You have received plenty good advice already.  Find attached the 2895-2 technical document.

ETA_ETA 2895-2.pdf

[eccentric59]

On 4/2/2024 at 4:19 PM, askme said:

I also just saw you are in Reading PA.  Are you a pro?  In which case, maybe I can bring it to you as I am somewhat local.

Sorry, been under the weather for a few days. I am not a pro. Just a hobbyist, but I just serviced this exact watch a month ago and this looks pretty simple to fix, if you want me to take a run at it.

[askme]

9 hours ago, eccentric59 said:

Sorry, been under the weather for a few days. I am not a pro. Just a hobbyist, but I just serviced this exact watch a month ago and this looks pretty simple to fix, if you want me to take a run at it.

Well, I’d be happy to stop by your place with a nice bottle of scotch.  

18 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

You don't have power to the escape wheel. May be still jam in the train, but (a silly question) did You wingd the mainspring? When the pallet was removed, then was the time to check if everything in the train is OK. Winding then leads to all wheels spinning fast

That’s helpful. WRT the mainspring. As a newbie, I was unclear how to depower the main. Which meant that when I took off the pallet, all hell broke loose. Pretty confident all is back together, but I seem a little unclear on how it all is supposed to operate.  I’ll review the technical manual. 

[eccentric59]

14 hours ago, askme said:

Well, I’d be happy to stop by your place with a nice bottle of scotch.  

On 4/8/2024 at 12:55 AM, nevenbekriev said:

You realize that if it's a good bottle, not much work will get done.  I'll pm you.

14 hours ago, askme said:

As a newbie, I was unclear how to depower the main.

The click is visible through a little hole in the barrel bridge next the barrel arbor.

If you hold the stem and use an old oiler or needle to move the click away from the teeth on that wheel, you can slowly let the power down. It this movement the click doesn't engage directly with the ratchet wheel. There's an intermediate wheel on the underside of the barrel bridge that you see here.

[RichardHarris123]

2 hours ago, eccentric59 said:

You realize that if it's a good bottle, not much work will get done.  I'll pm you.

The click is visible through a little hole in the barrel bridge next the barrel arbor.

If you hold the stem and use an old oiler or needle to move the click away from the teeth on that wheel, you can slowly let the power down. It this movement the click doesn't engage directly with the ratchet wheel. There's an intermediate wheel on the underside of the barrel bridge that you see here.

Well, I've learnt something new.