Removal of safety roller and roller table?

[BillM]

Hello,

Im working on a Waltham 6/0-C M89983 watch. 
Its got a broken staff and I’m in the process of replacing it.  Ive only done this once before, but never with a safety roller. 
Does it matter if the safety roller and the roller table are removed at the same time, or should I remove the them separately?  
Thank you for any insight with this question. 
Bill

 

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, BillM said:

Ive only done this once before, but never with a safety roller.

I believe most lever escapement watches have a safety roller. But the definition here is a separate safety roller. It depends upon the tools you are using to remove them. I usually find I start with the roller table itself and as it's coming off it will take the safety roller with it. Well eventually it will not right away and just be careful when you put them all back together that there in alignment sometimes it's a pain to get the safety roller where it's supposed to be. Plus you also want to pay attention often times the safety roller has a side one side is a little different than the other so this pay attention that you might be lucky in that might just have a straight hole but sometimes there's an indent and know I can't remember which ways which I just remember to pay attention when taking them apart

[BillM]

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

I believe most lever escapement watches have a safety roller. But the definition here is a separate safety roller. It depends upon the tools you are using to remove them. I usually find I start with the roller table itself and as it's coming off it will take the safety roller with it. Well eventually it will not right away and just be careful when you put them all back together that there in alignment sometimes it's a pain to get the safety roller where it's supposed to be. Plus you also want to pay attention often times the safety roller has a side one side is a little different than the other so this pay attention that you might be lucky in that might just have a straight hole but sometimes there's an indent and know I can't remember which ways which I just remember to pay attention when taking them apart

Ok, Thanks for the tip JR !   
Im using a roller table removing tool and my staking set, my first concern is having a stake that will fit inside the safety roller without getting stuck as I push the staff through it.  
 

Then my next concern is obtaining the correct replacement staff. I’ve already purchased one, but I fully expect to have to buy several before I get the right one.  

Edited January 16 by BillM

[Neverenoughwatches]

30 minutes ago, BillM said:

Ok, Thanks for the tip JR !   
Im using a roller table removing tool and my staking set, my first concern is having a stake that will fit inside the safety roller without getting stuck as I push the staff through it.  
 

Then my next concern is obtaining the correct replacement staff. I’ve already purchased one, but I fully expect to have to buy several before I get the right one.  

I use one of these but a good make bradux, something in my head tells me bradux is a subsidiary of bergeon. The cheap indian and chinese are not fit for the job. This lifts the roller free from the staff or at least starts its depart, instead of pushing the staff through the roller, different but same difference . The jaws need to be thin to get between the roller and the wheel and there is technique involved to stop you slicing a good staff, but worth trying to find a preference.  I also have a seperate tool that works on the same principle as your staking tool accessory but is used free hand. I prefer the Bradux.

Edited January 16 by Neverenoughwatches

[nevenbekriev]

Are You sure that the safety roller is separate? Looking at the picture, it seems to me that it is just usual double roller.

[BillM]

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

Are You sure that the safety roller is separate? Looking at the picture, it seems to me that it is just usual double roller.

I think so, I believe I can see a line between the table and the safety roller, but I guess Ill find out when I get it apart.  

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, BillM said:

I think so, I believe I can see a line between the table and the safety roller, but I guess Ill find out when I get it apart.  

There is a line but a line of dirt can look like a join. Soon find out.

[BillM]

OK, The safety roller is separate, and it came off really, really easily.  I don't think I pushed the staff more than .2 mm before the safety roller came loose.

I machined off the swaged staff material and then pushed out the staff. Looks like I also machined a bit of brass from the balance wheel too dang it. Not easy to do perfect.

Still learning big time, but enjoying it very much.

Bill

Edited January 17 by BillM

[nevenbekriev]

2 hours ago, BillM said:

 

I machined off the swaged staff material...

 

OK, the balance looks undamaged, but next time do it the right way. See this video, it is not to long:

 

[BillM]

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

OK, the balance looks undamaged, but next time do it the right way. See this video, it is not to long:

 

Ok, thank you for that!

Nice to see an example of doing this correctly!

Edited January 17 by BillM
Add info

[Kalanag]

(moved to another forum)

 

Edited January 17 by Kalanag

[JohnR725]

35 minutes ago, Kalanag said:

(moved to another forum)

Not helpful unless you tell us where it moved to? It used to be one of the frustrations with one of the past moderators who kept moving discussions where I would get an email I would go to and it's gone here I arrive but it's gone any idea where it is gone to? May be a link perhaps

[Kalanag]

7 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Not helpful unless you tell us where it moved to?

Sorry!

buyingbuilding-watchmakers-lathe

Edited January 17 by Kalanag

[BillM]

 

8 hours ago, Kalanag said:

Sorry!

buyingbuilding-watchmakers-lathe

 

8 hours ago, Kalanag said:

(moved to another forum)

 

What the? This thread has nothing to do with buying or building a lathe.  When the discussion evolves into help with the roller table or something else, will it get moved again?

ok sorry, I thought the whole thread was moved.  

Edited January 17 by BillM

[Neverenoughwatches]

15 hours ago, BillM said:

OK, The safety roller is separate, and it came off really, really easily.  I don't think I pushed the staff more than .2 mm before the safety roller came loose.

I machined off the swaged staff material and then pushed out the staff. Looks like I also machined a bit of brass from the balance wheel too dang it. Not easy to do perfect.

Still learning big time, but enjoying it very much.

Bill

Easily done Bill, hopefully its not too detrimental. 

[RichardHarris123]

By nature, I  think we are all alike.  We ignore the things we have done correctly and focus on tiny mistakes.  Maybe we should stop?  

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Maybe we should stop?  

Maybe we should stop making mistakes or stop doing what exactly?

2 hours ago, BillM said:

What the? This thread has nothing to do with buying or building a lathe.  When the discussion evolves into help with the roller table or something else, will it get moved again?

ok sorry, I thought the whole thread was moved.

I guess it depends upon how aggressive do what it be? Then we need the right moderator back it used to Bay stuff would be moved on a continuous basis and you can never track it down again. Or things would all be lumped together in a conversation so long that no one ever bothered to read it and then it would start a new conversation and it we moved back to the long conversation. Then they reorganize the messageboard into 1000 separate categories which makes it a pain to see everything

Then we never say on subject anymore and typically nobody worries about it. Except yes this was a roller table but it also involves balance staff removal and basically somebody added something involving a lathe realized it wasn't quite suitable and they voluntarily moved it or deleted the message and put it someplace else without telling us where

but as far as I know none of the moderators are moving anything anymore. So for the most part no one seems to get excited about discussions that no longer followed whatever the original intent was.

 

[RichardHarris123]

18 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Maybe we should stop making mistakes or stop doing what exactly?

Stop beating ourselves up when we make a mistake. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

17 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Stop beating ourselves up when we make a mistake. 

No problem instead I've been looking for an excuse to pop next door and fill in my neighbour , he does my bloody head in,

[BillM]

Update;

I have completed the re-assembly of the balance and am very pleased with the results. (First truly successful staff replacement ! )

The staking of the new staff went well as did the reinstallation of the roller table and safety roller.

I have trued up and poised the balance and then installed the hair spring. It took me a few tries, but I finley got the roller jewel perfectly aligned between the banking pins.

The forth wheel/ small seconds pinion was slightly bent and I was able to straighten it out, but we shall see how well.

Re-assembly of the movement is waiting on the new mainspring.

Bill

[nevenbekriev]

OK, what the free oscillations test shows?

And, now is the time to ttest the amplitude with hte old spring, in order to compare to the amplitude with the new spring, Can You do it for as?

[BillM]

2 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

OK, what the free oscillations test shows?

And, now is the time to ttest the amplitude with hte old spring, in order to compare to the amplitude with the new spring, Can You do it for as?

I don't know how to do a free oscillation test, and I’m probably not going to reassemble the watch with the old mainspring just to do a comparison.  At this point, ill be very happy just to get the watch running correctly. Im no pro, just learning.  

Edited January 23 by BillM

[nevenbekriev]

Well, I am pritty sure that if You do the test with the old spring, You will learn something interesting. I, for ehample, do not change the old springs if not broken, and I have never purchased a new spring in my life. When change needed, i will find proper spring among old used springs I have. Yes, I have met springs that are to tired ahd have replaced them, but this is one-two in 100. And I usually work with 200-300 years old watshes.

The free oscillations test: turn the balance to 180 degr. and release it. Count the free oscillations to full stop. Do this in both horizontal positions, see if there is difference. For a wrist movement, expected result is more than 100, this means that no losses in the hairspring and everything is OK with pivots/stones

Edited January 23 by nevenbekriev

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

i will find proper spring among old used springs I have. 

Hi nev, if you dont find correct size in your used springs , do you adjust size ?

[nevenbekriev]

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hi nev, if you dont find correct size in your used springs , do you adjust size ?

Reducing hight is possible, but it is not so simple. I have done it several times and understood that material has to be grinded from both sides equaly, othervice the spring bends to one side and gets 'good for nothing' The lenght is easy to reduce, and the bridle to be converted too