Struggling with mainspring winders

[Levine98]

Hi,

I bit the bullet and invested in several Bergeon mainspring winders (#6&7 winders L&R arbors). 

I was thinking this would cover me for the 1960s/1970s seiko and ETA calibers I’m interested in but come to find out that matching winders to barrel is more tricky than I thought. 

while the nbr 6&7 winders do fit the various barrels for the seiko calibers I have (51xx and 61xx), the arbors are way to big for the mainsprings.
 

I tried using the smaller of the two, the number 6 in the #7 winder, but that caused problems because the #6 arbor doesn’t fully cover the #7 winder (and even the #6 arbor is pretty tight).

so my question is how do you go about finding the right pairs or arbors and winders for general applications, or ultimately do you have to purchase caliber specific winders?

I’m sure I’m not the only hobbyest whose come across this problem—how do others handle this?

lastly, I know I could just purchase replacement mainsprings, but since I’m not buying in bulk and CousinsUK is the best source, repeated shipping cost alone justify the re-use of orignal mainsprings if they are in good shape (or maybe I keep telling myself that since I’m now out several hundred USD….)

 

[JohnR725]

Normally on the Swiss mainspring winders it comes is basically to pieces the barrel and the handle. Sometimes the handle might fit another barrel but that's more by accident than by deliberate design.. Oh and some of the Seiko's require a left-handed handle because they're backwards.

Then while everyone does love cousins it's amazing what kind of mainsprings you can find on eBay.

[Waggy]

@Levine98 I feel your pain, I like working on Seiko's too, but the mainspring is always an issue. I also got a half set of Bergeon winders (left and right) and the number 6 seems to work OK for the 7009, 6309 and 7S26/36 that I tend to work on....BUT.... the reverse bridal on the Seiko springs is difficult to use with the winders. So today I hand wind Seiko springs as I junk far fewer perfectly serviceable springs that way. I even reached out to Mike on My Retro Watches who does a lot of Seikos on his youtube channel and he replied with the same issues and he too hand winds Seiko springs. I don't have an issue with other brands using the winders (except when I do something stupid) but for some reason they don't like Seikos.

[Levine98]

9 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Normally on the Swiss mainspring winders it comes is basically to pieces the barrel and the handle. Sometimes the handle might fit another barrel but that's more by accident than by deliberate design.. Oh and some of the Seiko's require a left-handed handle because they're backwards.

Then while everyone does love cousins it's amazing what kind of mainsprings you can find on eBay.

Yes, thanks but I know this, that is the reason for my question. Regarding eBay, I'm a heavy user, however when it comes to small consumable items like mainsprings the prices tend to be outragous, even when compared to CousinsUK + shipping.

For example, Seiko mainsprings run $19.95 or more plus shipping on eBay. I can get them on CousinUK for less. If I use the ETA2892 mainspring (which I understand to be an equivalent to the GX/Seiko recommendation), the cost is even lower.

What I was really trying to learn was what alternative methods are folks using when they encounter this situation, ie, correct barrel diameter winder but completely wrong arbor diameter.

 

7 hours ago, Waggy said:

@Levine98 I feel your pain, I like working on Seiko's too, but the mainspring is always an issue. I also got a half set of Bergeon winders (left and right) and the number 6 seems to work OK for the 7009, 6309 and 7S26/36 that I tend to work on....BUT.... the reverse bridal on the Seiko springs is difficult to use with the winders. So today I hand wind Seiko springs as I junk far fewer perfectly serviceable springs that way. I even reached out to Mike on My Retro Watches who does a lot of Seikos on his youtube channel and he replied with the same issues and he too hand winds Seiko springs. I don't have an issue with other brands using the winders (except when I do something stupid) but for some reason they don't like Seikos.

Thanks, @Waggy, that is very helpful (to know I'm not the only one beating my head on this, that even more experienced members have encountered the same challenge).

I've hand wind pocket watch mainsprings before, but never smaller wristwatch ones. Given the reverse bridle, I suspect it takes a bit of practice?

[JohnR725]

20 minutes ago, Levine98 said:

I'm a heavy user, however when it comes to small consumable items like mainsprings the prices tend to be outragous, even when compared to CousinsUK + shipping.

Interesting? I was looking at the last two mainsprings I bought $10 each and by the time you add in shipping and tax is up to $28 for two springs let's make that $30 that makes them $15 each shipping. So Cousens is cheaper than that I will remember that the next time I need some mainsprings Nice to know that I'm getting ripped off on eBay I thought that was a bargain price.

[Waggy]

17 minutes ago, Levine98 said:

Given the reverse bridle, I suspect it takes a bit of practice?

Yes a little practice, but your odds of success are many times greater than using the winders, at least in my experience on Seiko springs. For all other springs where possible I use the winders with good success.

Also, not sure if this makes a difference, but on the Seiko barrels the cap tends to sit on on the outer diameter of the barrel slightly below the lip of the barrel body, this means that the spring is completely flush whit the top of the barrel. on a swiss barrel the cap fits inside the barrel body on top of the spring, meaning that the spring sits below the top of the barrel when winding it. I have had several occasions where spring has burst out of the barrel (usually when I am trying to wiggle out the winding arbor from the barrel winder), and I suspect that this is because the barrels on Seiko's have no room for error, unlike the swiss versions which give you a small amount of wiggle room before the spring would be free of the barrel, perhaps the winders are not precise enough to work with a spring which is completely flush and need that little bit of wiggle room? At least if you are hand winding you can see and adjust if it looks/feels like the spring is starting to peek over the top of the barrel?

[Levine98]

1 minute ago, JohnR725 said:

Interesting? I was looking at the last two mainsprings I bought $10 each and by the time you add in shipping and tax is up to $28 for two springs let's make that $30 that makes them $15 each shipping. So Cousens is cheaper than that I will remember that the next time I need some mainsprings Nice to know that I'm getting ripped off on eBay I thought that was a bargain price.

Even better, CousinUK shipping tends to be quicker (counter-intuitive I know).

On average I receive my CousinsUK shipment within 5 business days OR LESS!

My experience with eBay is completely random, depending on the seller. Some are really good about posting the day after sale, most others are not. When you factor in that most eBay sellers (myself included) now use USPS Ground Advantage, that adds time over first class mail since Ground Advantage is simply the old Parcel Post service rebranded with insurance and tracking built in. So on average my eBay orders tend to run 5-7 business days or longer.

4 minutes ago, Waggy said:

Yes a little practice, but your odds of success are many times greater than using the winders, at least in my experience on Seiko springs. For all other springs where possible I use the winders with good success.

Also, not sure if this makes a difference, but on the Seiko barrels the cap tends to sit on on the outer diameter of the barrel slightly below the lip of the barrel body, this means that the spring is completely flush whit the top of the barrel. on a swiss barrel the cap fits inside the barrel body on top of the spring, meaning that the spring sits below the top of the barrel when winding it. I have had several occasions where spring has burst out of the barrel (usually when I am trying to wiggle out the winding arbor from the barrel winder), and I suspect that this is because the barrels on Seiko's have no room for error, unlike the swiss versions which give you a small amount of wiggle room before the spring would be free of the barrel, perhaps the winders are not precise enough to work with a spring which is completely flush and need that little bit of wiggle room? At least if you are hand winding you can see and adjust if it looks/feels like the spring is starting to peek over the top of the barrel?

I've got a salvage 6119 on the way from eBay and plan on using the mainspring if I can. So I'm going to give this method a try before ordering replacements from CousinUK--very helpful and thanks again.

[gpraceman]

On 10/17/2023 at 5:34 PM, Levine98 said:

Hi,

I bit the bullet and invested in several Bergeon mainspring winders (#6&7 winders L&R arbors). 

I was thinking this would cover me for the 1960s/1970s seiko and ETA calibers I’m interested in but come to find out that matching winders to barrel is more tricky than I thought. 

while the nbr 6&7 winders do fit the various barrels for the seiko calibers I have (51xx and 61xx), the arbors are way to big for the mainsprings.
 

I tried using the smaller of the two, the number 6 in the #7 winder, but that caused problems because the #6 arbor doesn’t fully cover the #7 winder (and even the #6 arbor is pretty tight).

so my question is how do you go about finding the right pairs or arbors and winders for general applications, or ultimately do you have to purchase caliber specific winders?

I’m sure I’m not the only hobbyest whose come across this problem—how do others handle this?

lastly, I know I could just purchase replacement mainsprings, but since I’m not buying in bulk and CousinsUK is the best source, repeated shipping cost alone justify the re-use of orignal mainsprings if they are in good shape (or maybe I keep telling myself that since I’m now out several hundred USD….)

 

I tried a few different things with mainspring winders to avoid forking out the money for a Bergeon set.  3D printed winders, 3D printed winder barrels with a couple of Bergeon arbors, and a cheap Chinese set.  Each had their issues.  What I settled on was a modified Chinese set of winders with a couple of Bergeon winders.  By modified, I mean that I drilled out arbor holes on some of the winders to be able to accept larger arbors.  This made the set more generic than caliber specific.

With the Bergeon #6 and #8 arbors factored in, I have a variety of arbor sizes from 1.5mm to 3.5mm.  So, it is easier to find a suitable combo of arbor and winder for a given mainspring.  This has worked for me so far, but haven't yet tried it with a Seiko mainspring.  When I need a right hand arbor and only have a left hand (or vice versa), I have some brass washers that I have drilled out for different diameters to press the mainspring into as an intermediary.

Edited October 23, 2023 by gpraceman

[Malocchio]

#7 arbor is thicker than than the 61/63xx mainspring loop but you can force it in without permanent damage. The problem is pulling the arbor out once the spring is wound inside the winder. I use an exacto knife to keep the spring inside while pulling the arbor out. #6 and Seiko 7xxx is better fit but there's a bigger gap between winder and barrel wall so you have to be careful while pushing the spring in the barrel.

[Waggy]

53 minutes ago, Malocchio said:

The problem is pulling the arbor out once the spring is wound inside the winder.

Safety safety! 

I always wear a pair of glasses when messing with mainsprings, you never know when you will have a lapse in concentration and the spring rips loose. Never had an occasion where I've had a close call, but I can imagine the outcome if one did head that direction, sharp metal traveling at Mach 3!

You need to be careful if the winding arbor is too large, as this can open up the inner loop of the spring and then your barrel arbor wont catch(learned this the hard way), bending the spring back into shape is a bad idea as the steel is hardened and will break before it returns to shape (also learned the hard way - much swearing from my workshop). I am sure @Malocchio is correct in this instance and its tight but not too tight, so this is just a heads up for future experience.

Here is a YouTube showing how to do this properly, but never done it myself.... yet

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Waggy

[wudce]

Not sure about other Seiko movements since I have only worked on the 6309 movements. If you order the GR2534X from Cosine UK which is what there web site call for you will find the inner coil to be too big. What you need is the GR25341X or ETA2892A2.  I have since fixed 3 6309 movements using the GR25341X without any problems. This a lot cheaper than finding a Mainspring winder that will work.

[Levine98]

20 minutes ago, wudce said:

Not sure about other Seiko movements since I have only worked on the 6309 movements. If you order the GR2534X from Cosine UK which is what there web site call for you will find the inner coil to be too big. What you need is the GR25341X or ETA2892A2.  I have since fixed 3 6309 movements using the GR25341X without any problems. This a lot cheaper than finding a Mainspring winder that will work.

That is what I ended up doing