How to remove the stem and crown from a Dennison threaded case - help please

[Juleswatch]

Hi folks,

I just bought a nice Dennison threaded case which I am going to put a James Poole movement into. I measured everything and it seems it will fit. The movement is working but still needs to be cleaned and lubricated. I just can't seem to get the stem out of the case - clearly lack of experience with these cases, it's my first. So if anybody can cast any light on this I would really appreciate it. The stem turns freely and I can wobble it slightly and there is no screw which is holding it in place, or spring assembly lurking in the back of the case (that I can see). Photo's attached help welcome. Free bag of salt and vinegar crisps for the person who helps out when I am next in the UK.

Cheers...Jules

 

[nickelsilver]

Grip the stem square with smooth pliers, and unscrew the crown. The stem should now pull out from the inside of the case.

[RichardHarris123]

Have you got the stem and crown for the movement?  If so is the stem long enough for the case and does the crown fit over the pendant tube. Can I have prawn cocktail please? 

[Juleswatch]

I thank you both - I just looked at the help now and will give it a go. I'll let you know.  Nickelsilver gets the crisps and yes I'm feeling generous when you teach me to make a balance wheel from some unwanted screwdrivers I'll buy you a prawn cocktail!

Just gave it a try and it doesn't budget so for fear of breaking it I gave it a squirt of WD40 which doesn't go anywhere near my watches normally. If it frees it up I'll clean it off with 99% alcohol... otherwise any ideas - should I heat the crown? (obviously after removing the WD and alcohol

Per my other earlier burble, I'm negotiating two used watchmakers lathes (buying one or the other), one is a Lorch 8mm which I think is German and the other is a Star which is supposed to be Swiss. The Swiss one is more expensive and is fully equipped and the german one needs motor and some accessories, I can fix up a motor  no problem, and would have to find accessories here in Brazil. The Swiss one is five times the cost of the german one but looks more like a metal working lathe I am used to, the German one appears to have what I would think was a stand for using wood working tools, maybe thats how watchmakers use a lathe I don't know as I'm just starting but I'm used to using one with the cutting tool secured like in the Swiss picture on the right. Any advise or comments welcome.

Cheers...Jules

Just figured out what you meant Richard - no is the answer, I'm hoping to either repurpose the one I am trying to get out it was for a Buren movement photos attached. Of course I could just make life easier and fix the Buren movement, don't know much about them, I suppose I just wanted to make life harder and put in the James Poole as I know some history of them and kinda liked the way it ticks! Yes I know more newbie stuff more prawn cocktails!

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Juleswatch said:

I thank you both - I just looked at the help now and will give it a go. I'll let you know.  Nickelsilver gets the crisps and yes I'm feeling generous when you teach me to make a balance wheel from some unwanted screwdrivers I'll buy you a prawn cocktail!

Just gave it a try and it doesn't budget so for fear of breaking it I gave it a squirt of WD40 which doesn't go anywhere near my watches normally. If it frees it up I'll clean it off with 99% alcohol... otherwise any ideas - should I heat the crown? (obviously after removing the WD and alcohol

Per my other earlier burble, I'm negotiating two used watchmakers lathes (buying one or the other), one is a Lorch 8mm which I think is German and the other is a Star which is supposed to be Swiss. The Swiss one is more expensive and is fully equipped and the german one needs motor and some accessories, I can fix up a motor  no problem, and would have to find accessories here in Brazil. The Swiss one is five times the cost of the german one but looks more like a metal working lathe I am used to, the German one appears to have what I would think was a stand for using wood working tools, maybe thats how watchmakers use a lathe I don't know as I'm just starting but I'm used to using one with the cutting tool secured like in the Swiss picture on the right. Any advise or comments welcome.

Cheers...Jules

Just figured out what you meant Richard - no is the answer, I'm hoping to either repurpose the one I am trying to get out it was for a Buren movement photos attached. Of course I could just make life easier and fix the Buren movement, don't know much about them, I suppose I just wanted to make life harder and put in the James Poole as I know some history of them and kinda liked the way it ticks! Yes I know more newbie stuff more prawn cocktails!

The Star has a cross slide, a nice accessory to have . The Lorch a rest for free hand cutting with a graver. Great to have both, the cross slides are often as much if not more than the lathe itself when bought separately. The Star would save you sourcing the all split chucks (collets)  it also has the 3 jaw chuck, again if in good condition can almost as much as a lathe. The five times price is probably not far off the mark.

[Juleswatch]

Many thanks for that - indeed it was the cross slide and assembly that caught my attention it looked like bigger lathes that I have worked on rather than the rest for free hand cutting which i've only ever done with wood and not much of that. Thanks for the advice I am kind of leaning that way - if you're going to do it do it well. I'll see what I can get it for and make a decision cheers...Jules

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 hours ago, Juleswatch said:

Many thanks for that - indeed it was the cross slide and assembly that caught my attention it looked like bigger lathes that I have worked on rather than the rest for free hand cutting which i've only ever done with wood and not much of that. Thanks for the advice I am kind of leaning that way - if you're going to do it do it well. I'll see what I can get it for and make a decision cheers...Jules

 

Lets hope its a good deal on the Star for you, i have quite a few Star tools i really like the quality of them . Still searching for a cross slide for my Wolf jahn, cheapest I've seen up to now was almost double what i paid for the lathe.

[tomh207]

I agree with all @Neverenoughwatches said, my lathe is a long work in progress collecting accessories and collets as they come up is a frustrating and expensive process. If you can afford it go for the star as it is the most complete. I think star lathes are still made so maybe possible to get spares, they were sold by cousins until fairly recently. Have a look at lathes.co.uk for lots of information and history of the lathes you are interested in.

 

Tom

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

I agree with all @Neverenoughwatches said, my lathe is a long work in progress collecting accessories and collets as they come up is a frustrating and expensive process. If you can afford it go for the star as it is the most complete. I think star lathes are still made so maybe possible to get spares, they were sold by cousins until fairly recently. Have a look at lathes.co.uk for lots of information and history of the lathes you are interested in.

 

Tom

Eyup Tom. How is the lathe work goin ? i still haven't got around to doing much with the wolf yet, i really need to get my finger out and crack on.  The chuck fits nicely btw and a good addition to have thank you kindly matey. My recent endevor is trying to make a retiring watchmaker a mile from me succumb to my charms and take me under his knowledgeable wing. His missus seemed interested that had some stupidly serious vintage staff and stem stock . Hes getting a call from me this morning to chat about watches in particular a DD that needs a replacement staffs that i just dare not touch yet and am dying to have it on my wrist, and err well under my pillow and in my bed and to wear in the shower. Is that just wrong or do we all feel like that about our favourite watch .

[tomh207]

9 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Eyup Tom. How is the lathe work goin ? i still haven't got around to doing much with the wolf yet, i really need to get my finger out and crack on.  The chuck fits nicely btw and a good addition to have thank you kindly matey. My recent endevor is trying to make a retiring watchmaker a mile from me succumb to my charms and take me under his knowledgeable wing. His missus seemed interested that had some stupidly serious vintage staff and stem stock . Hes getting a call from me this morning to chat about watches in particular a DD that needs a replacement staffs that i just dare not touch yet and am dying to have it on my wrist, and err well under my pillow and in my bed and to wear in the shower. Is that just wrong or do we all feel like that about our favourite watch .

Hi Rich,

everything is going slowly atm . Keep adding to the tools to refurbish/fettle projects list. Got a decent looking jacot on its way along with a set of incabloc pushers/stumps for a horia tool, now to get a clone horia. I have fired out a respectable price for storage for some of the lathe bits I have been collecting and the stuff has just arrived so there will be some updates on that in my original lathe thread.

 

Tom

[Neverenoughwatches]

44 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

Hi Rich,

everything is going slowly atm . Keep adding to the tools to refurbish/fettle projects list. Got a decent looking jacot on its way along with a set of incabloc pushers/stumps for a horia tool, now to get a clone horia. I have fired out a respectable price for storage for some of the lathe bits I have been collecting and the stuff has just arrived so there will be some updates on that in my original lathe thread.

 

Tom

Are the incabloc pushers for a genuine horia, the clone i have is a little out on the sizes of pushers and stumps. Some from other jewelling tools are slack and some a little oversize and dont fit. Give me a min and I'll measure them up. Might be worth asking for exact sizing of the clones. 

[tomh207]

14 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Are the incabloc pushers for a genuine horia, the clone i have is a little out on the sizes of pushers and stumps. Some from other jewelling tools are slack and some a little oversize and dont fit. Give me a min and I'll measure them up. Might be worth asking for exact sizing of the clones. 

The tool should be either 3mm upper 4mm lower or 4mm for both. Once I get these in I will measure them up. The auction didn’t specify horia but they are original incabloc and what little I have found so far they shoul be 4mm/4mm

 

Tom

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Are the incabloc pushers for a genuine horia, the clone i have is a little out on the sizes of pushers and stumps. Some from other jewelling tools are slack and some a little oversize and dont fit. Give me a min and I'll measure them up. Might be worth asking for exact sizing of the clones. 

All the pushers and anvils for the clone i have are a fraction under 4 mm. Some 3.99 some 3.98 checked on a digital vernier and an accurate bench micrometer. They all fit my seitz tool pretty well. A couple of the Seitz anvils measure 4.02 these are very tight in the horia clone base but all the seitz pushers fit the clone perfectly. Ignore the 3mm on the bench micrometer its exactly 1mm under size, the screw holding the fixed anvil is seized so i can only fine calibrate the micrometer but it is accurate. Top picture is a clone anvil at 3.98  middle a seitz anvil possibly a touch over size at 4.02 wont fit the clone base or pusher but it demonstrates that the clone will only just take 4mm at a push. What ive discovered is the clone and accessories are a good fit for a seitz tool. Only to bere in mind  original horia parts may or may not struggle to fit a clone. Hope tbis helps matey.

1 hour ago, tomh207 said:

The tool should be either 3mm upper 4mm lower or 4mm for both. Once I get these in I will measure them up. The auction didn’t specify horia but they are original incabloc and what little I have found so far they shoul be 4mm/4mm

 

Tom

If they come a little under 4mm then should be ok. Not sure about other clones they may vary but mine finishes nicely at just 4mm both ends, you need that extra 1 or 2 hundreth tolerance on the pushers to have a good sliding fit. The clone base hole you could increase relatively easily the pusher spindle probably not. Shaving the pushers down would be a real ball ache for you, at least get that lathe of yours up and running

Edited September 8, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[Juleswatch]

The Star is more than I was going to pay but I can pay it in 12 installments with no interest, kinda leaning that way. I'll let you know and of course if and when it comes and I have it set up send pics cheers...Jules

[Neverenoughwatches]

24 minutes ago, Juleswatch said:

The Star is more than I was going to pay but I can pay it in 12 installments with no interest, kinda leaning that way. I'll let you know and of course if and when it comes and I have it set up send pics cheers...Jules

Can you say the cost out loud or does it really hurt bad

[RichardHarris123]

Did you manage to remove the crown ?

[Juleswatch]

A job for this afternoon Richard, I've been negotiating my lathe this morning, just bought the Star, can't wait to give it a spin (scuse the pun!)

Sure you can all have a laugh I paid about 1700 for the lot - yeh I know newbie price, but its all intact and ready to go!

[tomh207]

Jules, if is very complete it is a bargain, even getting a reasonable kitted out Chinese watchmaker lathe will cost a few times that.

 

Tom

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Juleswatch said:

A job for this afternoon Richard, I've been negotiating my lathe this morning, just bought the Star, can't wait to give it a spin (scuse the pun!)

Sure you can all have a laugh I paid about 1700 for the lot - yeh I know newbie price, but its all intact and ready to go!

Having it all complete is a big bonus, no hold ups when learning and projects. I've made this mistake with other major tools, on my forth jewelling tool but I'm happy to stop with that now .

[Juleswatch]

Cheers mate thats the way I se it too

Thanks Tom ! Looking forward to it arriving - will send pictures

Thanks Guys - maybe not money thrown away... I'll be sure to send you action shots of Hebdomas balance shafts being manufactured or... not in the next couple of weeks cheers Jules 

I forgot to mention my partner in crime Bob, he takes minutes gives supervisory advice, snores etc. he's 19 so if you buy into the 7-1 theory he's 133 an inspiration to say the least.

[Juleswatch]

Thanks for the advice last week! Proof attached finally got the stem out of the Dennison case - seems like such an easy solution - why didn't I think of that!