Looking for advice on repairing an old broken watch.

[Galilea]

13 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Yep pretty much all of it will be fine. We are all watch lovers and tool geeks. Obscure tools are of particular interest to me.  Curious to know how, when and why you started such an extreme collection, your interest in the hobby must be phenomenal ?

Heheh, I wil try to do my profile statement soon, and I am not sure this is of general interest, but...:

- Why watches? They aren't my only hobby. I particpate (or once did) in others but all relate to tinkering with bygone hardware as a means to understanding technolgy psychology. Eg.,

• Thinkpad laptops, T and X lines, from IBM days until the year 2000 (extinct hobby);
• Nikon S reasearch microscopes of the 60s in all variations, (slumbering hobby);
• Watches (current main hobby);
• Clockwork/mechanical toys 1900-1960 (hobby on runway 1); and
• Robots and pulp scifi, mainly 1930-1960 (runway 2 hobby)

- Why so extreme? I call myself an independant thinker, others call me a stubborn mule. My family started saying my middle name is "No Input, Please" by age 8. I like to figure things out in a vacuum first. So, in order to figure out watches I had to get a whole bunch of them, then thought to aquire closed out watchmaker workshops in the hope of figuring it out based on the things they used.

I think doing that all has helped me quite a bit, but I am check-mated there until I learn from others, hence this forum and the classes. I don't really want to have a collection of anything, so will someday jettison the load. 

So far, I only know what I know, so don't know which tools or jewels or drills or chucks or holders, openers, oilers etc. are unusual. As I learn, it shoud become clear.

How did your habit develop?

[JohnR725]

45 minutes ago, Galilea said:

Why watches? They aren't my only hobby.

probably the reference to watches has to do with the title of the discussion group.

47 minutes ago, Galilea said:

I learn from others

from your description I was going to ask why you're here but that's a good sign.

 

 

 

[Galilea]

13 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

probably the reference to watches has to do with the title of the discussion group.

from your description I was going to ask why you're here but that's a good sign.

 

 

 

Ah, I did see that this is a Watches forum. That's just what drew me in.

I thought neverenoughwatches asked me why I like watches. I probably should have been less specific and detailed. I have little experience at group joining, am trying to learn forum decorum. Feel free to police my posts and let me know when you think I should do it differently.

I am not sure which description you are referencing: my general introduction or the response about my collection.  Again, I hope you will let me know what meets your standards and what I need to clean up. I am not asking for any special favors or attention, because I know there are no shortcuts to becoming one of the cool kids, but any wisdom you can find time to share is most appreciated. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Galilea said:

Heheh, I wil try to do my profile statement soon, and I am not sure this is of general interest, but...:

- Why watches? They aren't my only hobby. I particpate (or once did) in others but all relate to tinkering with bygone hardware as a means to understanding technolgy psychology. Eg.,

• Thinkpad laptops, T and X lines, from IBM days until the year 2000 (extinct hobby);
• Nikon S reasearch microscopes of the 60s in all variations, (slumbering hobby);
• Watches (current main hobby);
• Clockwork/mechanical toys 1900-1960 (hobby on runway 1); and
• Robots and pulp scifi, mainly 1930-1960 (runway 2 hobby)

- Why so extreme? I call myself an independant thinker, others call me a stubborn mule. My family started saying my middle name is "No Input, Please" by age 8. I like to figure things out in a vacuum first. So, in order to figure out watches I had to get a whole bunch of them, then thought to aquire closed out watchmaker workshops in the hope of figuring it out based on the things they used.

I think doing that all has helped me quite a bit, but I am check-mated there until I learn from others, hence this forum and the classes. I don't really want to have a collection of anything, so will someday jettison the load. 

So far, I only know what I know, so don't know which tools or jewels or drills or chucks or holders, openers, oilers etc. are unusual. As I learn, it shoud become clear.

How did your habit develop?

This all sounds like you are not capable of an idle mind, i think you've joined the right place . Me personally I never had an interest in watches, in fact after my 20s i never wore one for over 20 years. Then my father passed away a few years ago and i found a broken watch in his flat. I remember him letting me play with it as kid of around 7 yrs old, it didnt work then. I also remember seeing inside it and looking at the jewels and wondering why precious jewels were in a watch, he must have told me what they were called. I think it belonged to his father, i couldnt find anyone to fix it as it was in bad shape so i ordered a cheap set of tools, balanced a magnifiying glass between two cups and set to. A month later i had cut free a very rusted in stem, replaced 2 escape wheels, a lever, a crystal and managed to clean and oil it. I was amazed it worked after a rather emotional moment . I figured i might be quite good at it and needed a hobby that was less taxing on my body ( lots of injuries from my physical day job and weight lifting ) Its now my escape from the world, where i can tinker in a little room by myself

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Galilea said:

I have little experience at group joining, am trying to learn forum decorum. Feel free to police my posts and let me know when you think I should do it differently.

first sentence is very very bad. Yes really bad. But you recovered nicely with the rest of it. Late lay I can think of to particular individuals who when they came to the group were unhappy were very unhappy because the group did not meet their expectations of whatever they expected. At least one or both of them almost got blacklisted. Somebody had pointed this out to me there's a feature where you can basically blacklist somebody and never see them ever again and to be honest it made me really happy when I blacklisted somebody.

So it looks like basically from what I quoted you'll do fine. The issue becomes when the group does not perform the way you would like a you think the group should change to the way you function

fortunately those two problems art a problem anymore one of them figured out how the group works and seems to be rather productive than the other one is almost invisible to me as I don't care anymore.

2 hours ago, Galilea said:

I call myself an independant thinker, others call me a stubborn mule. My family started saying my middle name is "No Input, Please" by age 8. I like to figure things out in a vacuum first. So, in order to figure out watches I had to get a whole bunch of them, then thought to aquire closed out watchmaker workshops in the hope of figuring it out based on the things they used.

I think doing that all has helped me quite a bit, but I am check-mated there until I learn from others, hence this forum and the classes. I don't really want to have a collection of anything, so will someday jettison the load. 

basically recover nicely on this one also. The first part stubborn etc. often times when people come to the group once again expectations and they ask a question they don't get the answer they want and their angry because often times they have no idea what the answer they really need is and if you attempt to point them in the right direction they're angry because they're expecting an answer that you're not giving them. Basically people who try to help newbies can get frustrated.

but it looks like you would like help and are willing to accept help so you should do fine here.

 

[Galilea]

31 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

This all sounds like you are not capable of an idle mind, i think you've joined the right place . Me personally I never had an interest in watches, in fact after my 20s i never wore one for over 20 years. Then my father passed away a few years ago and i found a broken watch in his flat. I remember him letting me play with it as kid of around 7 yrs old, it didnt work then. I also remember seeing inside it and looking at the jewels and wondering why precious jewels were in a watch, he must have told me what they were called. I think it belonged to his father, i couldnt find anyone to fix it as it was in bad shape so i ordered a cheap set of tools, balanced a magnifiying glass between two cups and set to. A month later i had cut free a very rusted in stem, replaced 2 escape wheels, a lever, a crystal and managed to clean and oil it. I was amazed it worked after a rather emotional moment . I figured i might be quite good at it and needed a hobby that was less taxing on my body ( lots of injuries from my physical day job and weight lifting ) Its now my escape from the world, where i can tinker in a little room by myself

What a lovely story. What was the watch, the one from your father? Yes, you do sound very gifted at watch repair. I have done no such repairs yet really, just learned about them theoretically. I have found however that thinking a thing is doable and acctually doing the thing are universes apart. Down to the practical! Your courage is commendable. I hope to find my way to see the watches in your collection. I am not yet sure how to go about doing that.

I relate to this hobby as being an escape. When it comes right down to it, I find this kind of small repair relaxing, soothing really. Engaging my hands helps to idle my mind, a desireable state. 

20 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

first sentence is very very bad. Yes really bad. But you recovered nicely with the rest of it. Late lay I can think of to particular individuals who when they came to the group were unhappy were very unhappy because the group did not meet their expectations of whatever they expected. At least one or both of them almost got blacklisted. Somebody had pointed this out to me there's a feature where you can basically blacklist somebody and never see them ever again and to be honest it made me really happy when I blacklisted somebody.

So it looks like basically from what I quoted you'll do fine. The issue becomes when the group does not perform the way you would like a you think the group should change to the way you function

fortunately those two problems art a problem anymore one of them figured out how the group works and seems to be rather productive than the other one is almost invisible to me as I don't care anymore.

basically recover nicely on this one also. The first part stubborn etc. often times when people come to the group once again expectations and they ask a question they don't get the answer they want and their angry because often times they have no idea what the answer they really need is and if you attempt to point them in the right direction they're angry because they're expecting an answer that you're not giving them. Basically people who try to help newbies can get frustrated.

but it looks like you would like help and are willing to accept help so you should do fine here.

 

Lol, why thank you kindly for the review! Delighted to hear I have potential. 

Just so you know, I signed up for all three of the courses so don't plan to ask too many questions until I do those courses. Otherwise, it would take me very little time to be asking far too many questions.

I don't believe there would be any circumstance in which this existing group would dissapoint or anger me. I just cannot even imagine how that ever happens. Cheers!

[Neverenoughwatches]

6 hours ago, Galilea said:

What a lovely story. What was the watch, the one from your father? Yes, you do sound very gifted at watch repair. I have done no such repairs yet really, just learned about them theoretically. I have found however that thinking a thing is doable and acctually doing the thing are universes apart. Down to the practical! Your courage is commendable. I hope to find my way to see the watches in your collection. I am not yet sure how to go about doing that.

I relate to this hobby as being an escape. When it comes right down to it, I find this kind of small repair relaxing, soothing really. Engaging my hands helps to idle my mind, a desireable state. 

Haha, i wouldnt say gifted, brave and stupid more like , i messed up a lot in the beginning, still mess up but not so much now. I've always been practical and love to fix things, even things that aren't broken . My learning style is quite intense, as much as i can as quickly as i can. Jumping in at the deep end seems to work for me, mistakes can be costly but never forgotten. People i work with and friends know me as a # Have a go Hero # and generally come to the conclusion if Rich can't sort it then no-one can. Which can be a bit of a pain as I'm the first port of call when someone has a problem with something but thats kinda nice as well. The watch was a 70s Sekonda, its been revisited since its first jump start back to life and has had 2 donors but doing well now. The practical and theoretical side do go hand in hand, and compliment each other. You often get that # ah now i understand moment # from both sides. But yes i know what you mean, a lot of reading to make it sound fairly simple and then to discover that holding a pair of tweezers very still and turning a screwdriver in a tiny mechanical device is like the hardest thing you've ever done with your hands . 

[Galilea]

20 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Haha, i wouldnt say gifted, brave and stupid more like , i messed up a lot in the beginning, still mess up but not so much now. I've always been practical and love to fix things, even things that aren't broken . My learning style is quite intense, as much as i can as quickly as i can. Jumping in at the deep end seems to work for me, mistakes can be costly but never forgotten. People i work with and friends know me as a # Have a go Hero # and generally come to the conclusion if Rich can't sort it then no-one can. Which can be a bit of a pain as I'm the first port of call when someone has a problem with something but thats kinda nice as well. The watch was a 70s Sekonda, its been revisited since its first jump start back to life and has had 2 donors but doing well now. The practical and theoretical side do go hand in hand, and compliment each other. You often get that # ah now i understand moment # from both sides. But yes i know what you mean, a lot of reading to make it sound fairly simple and then to discover that holding a pair of tweezers very still and turning a screwdriver in a tiny mechanical device is like the hardest thing you've ever done with your hands . 

 You are one funny man! But about using the tiny tools, right? I can't even write legibly, and forcing myself to do so has my hand cramp up in under a paragraph, it's awful. Might even be hazardous to my health, which I am trying to preserve!

And then, I can't see either! It's almost impossible, but the job gets done.

Guilty secret, my tinkering landscape is slightly dotted with the casualties of my never-ceasing curiosity. There's a steep learning curve, and sometimes things go sideways on me. I am trying to keep all that in the microscope area. It came as a great surprise to me, to find that a microscope is a a far more complex and highly-engineered tool than is a Thinkpad laptop. They require such rigorous adherance to protocol and procedure!

Guilty confession: I think I am avoiding starting the courses here until I think I am ready, because I don't want to wreck anything, my watches are so nice really...make no sense. I did go buy a couple more today,  got the database started, and ..here we go! I will start by the end of this week.

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 hours ago, Galilea said:

 You are one funny man! But about using the tiny tools, right? I can't even write legibly, and forcing myself to do so has my hand cramp up in under a paragraph, it's awful. Might even be hazardous to my health, which I am trying to preserve!

And then, I can't see either! It's almost impossible, but the job gets done.

Guilty secret, my tinkering landscape is slightly dotted with the casualties of my never-ceasing curiosity. There's a steep learning curve, and sometimes things go sideways on me. I am trying to keep all that in the microscope area. It came as a great surprise to me, to find that a microscope is a a far more complex and highly-engineered tool than is a Thinkpad laptop. They require such rigorous adherance to protocol and procedure!

Guilty confession: I think I am avoiding starting the courses here until I think I am ready, because I don't want to wreck anything, my watches are so nice really...make no sense. I did go buy a couple more today,  got the database started, and ..here we go! I will start by the end of this week.

Everyone here is of a differing age ability,  disability, race, creed knowledge and attitude, there is no judgement.  We all help each other and have fun, thats what life should all be about. When you are ready to start we have your back, let your questions flow as WW often quotes no question is stupid. Make sure you accompany it with plenty of close detailed photos of the dial, caseback, movement dial side and watchmaker's side as initially you want to identify what you are working on.  So measure the movement's diameter accurately and take photos of any makers logos, marks, numbers, letters and serial numbers. Catch you later

[Zayga80]

this is what I got:

• Stamped: 14kt
• Serial number 835687.
• Watch diameter: 5.5 cm

 

[Galilea]

9 minutes ago, Zayga80 said:

this is what I got:

• Stamped: 14kt
• Serial number 835687.
• Watch diameter: 5.5 cm

 

Thank you for that, and perhaps a pic next? Because, and FYI:

a) Lots of cases that are gold-filled or plated have 14k stamped on them, though I don't think it isn't. For me, the multi-metal cases are more difficult to figure out. I have a sterling silver watch that looks similar and gold-filled ones too. It is gorgeous no matter but one wants to know, right? If it has a guarantee of years, it is not solid gold. If it says it was assayed, then it is. And there are many other indicators.

b) I just looked quickly at the pocketwatchdatabase.com web site and if the serial number is correct it is a model 1857 watch, probably made in 1875, and the grade is Home Watch Company. The others I have seen have Home Watch Co. on the movement. It is key set. Do you know if yours says Home Watch Co. on it? I looked at just a dozen examples but so far none are signed on the dial like yours is.

c) This serial number points to an 18s size which has a diameter of 44.87 mm. I wonder if you included the case?It all only matters because the people eager to offer advice  will be more effective if they know all the details. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Zayga80 said:

this is what I got:

• Stamped: 14kt
• Serial number 835687.
• Watch diameter: 5.5 cm

 

Can we see pictures of the movement. Are these numbers on the case ?

[JohnR725]

4 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Can we see pictures of the movement. Are these numbers on the case

the problem is this is the second page  of the discussion with bonus things to distract. You need to go back to the first page then you'll say oh  that watch. Then you scroll down and you get the name on the dial  in the numbers make a lot of sense. You just need to refresh your memory like I did.

 

7 hours ago, Zayga80 said:

• Stamped: 14kt
• Serial number 835687.
• Watch diameter: 5.5 cm

 

then it probably is 14 karat gold because I've seen a case like this before.. You'll notice the back with its various colored gold's it probably is solid but  ideally we should have the picture because as others have pointed out there may be clarification words associated with that number. there might be words like 20 years case which tells you it's really a rolled gold plated case  but they don't say that because it looks more impressive to say 14 K but really do need a picture just to clarify..

tthen from the picture on the other page I know that that's a serial number  we can go to the pocketwatch database we know who made the watch and there it is.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/835687

7 hours ago, Galilea said:

This serial number points to an 18s size which has a diameter of 44.87 mm. I wonder if you included the case?It all only matters because the people eager to offer advice  will be more effective if they know all the details.

then yes I went looked at the list of movement sizes and obviously the diameter does include the case otherwise that would be a really big movement.

then the problem pocket watch database is the source of the information was not meant to be doing what were doing now.. The watch companies had listings for parts availability. Often times like for instance Elgin a whole bunch of separate watches get lumped together as one category for parts while are actually a whole bunch of separate watches. Then we have Waltham which tended to have for parts and other things lots and lots and lots of variations. So basically  we get close but we may not get a exact match because that's not what the database numbers are based upon

 

 

[Galilea]

17 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

the problem is this is the second page  of the discussion with bonus things to distract. You need to go back to the first page then you'll say oh  that watch. Then you scroll down and you get the name on the dial  in the numbers make a lot of sense. You just need to refresh your memory like I did.

 

then it probably is 14 karat gold because I've seen a case like this before.. You'll notice the back with its various colored gold's it probably is solid but  ideally we should have the picture because as others have pointed out there may be clarification words associated with that number. there might be words like 20 years case which tells you it's really a rolled gold plated case  but they don't say that because it looks more impressive to say 14 K but really do need a picture just to clarify..

tthen from the picture on the other page I know that that's a serial number  we can go to the pocketwatch database we know who made the watch and there it is.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/835687

then yes I went looked at the list of movement sizes and obviously the diameter does include the case otherwise that would be a really big movement.

then the problem pocket watch database is the source of the information was not meant to be doing what were doing now.. The watch companies had listings for parts availability. Often times like for instance Elgin a whole bunch of separate watches get lumped together as one category for parts while are actually a whole bunch of separate watches. Then we have Waltham which tended to have for parts and other things lots and lots and lots of variations. So basically  we get close but we may not get a exact match because that's not what the database numbers are based upon

 

 

John, how did you get to be so knowedgeable? Are you a watch savant, or do you have other areas of expertise? I really appreciate your posts.

About the case, yes, I can see it is multi-colored metal and have no opinion about the composition of those metals. My point is, it seems to me that people get confused and if he is talking a new case (which I do not think he is) it is important to determine . Here are two multii-metal cases from my collection, for example. One marked as sterling, the other as 14k, when clearly more metals are involved in both. Not sure how that works.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Galilea said:

how did you get to be so knowedgeable? Are you a watch savant, or do you have other areas of expertise? I really appreciate your posts.

time would be the most likely answer. I love the quest for knowledge so I've accumulated a heck of a lot of knowledge but not just in watches. Unfortunately not enough knowledge to get me a job in any of those things. Then I've also answered a heck of a lot of questions which means I have to research those more knowledge. I'm also taught watch repair to hobbyists which is why I also can anticipate what the questions really are versus what is being asked. So just I've collect a lot of information over time.

then yes case descriptions become interesting because when you see 14 K you're thinking money valuable. But you start adding on extra words or initials and then you find out it's not solid it's just plated or  one of the ways they made like the twenty-year cases and rolled gold is they would sandwich a layer of gold heavier on the outside some base metal and then a thin layer of gold and that is rolled out used to manufacture the case that has a very heavy outer layer but it's definitely not solid. Then the Europeans have a whole bunch of different terminology for things all designed to impress the customer and confuse everybody but as long as you think it's valuable it's okay.

Other things that make cases interesting especially for American pocket watches because I don't know enough about the European ones. Was that for instance at one time you go into the store pocket watch movements in one case cases in the other case you could pick and choose. One of my friends has a really nice called Francis Ruby 10 the size Elgin. Basically it was a very high grade ladies key wind watch in a I can't quite remember these a gold case with the original cardboard box and everything is very proud of that all original. Except the movements were sold separate from the case they were brought together so it's not like was purchased from the factory in that condition but he's happy with his watch so who cares about the details.

oh and I forgot something about the pocket watch database is why we still need a picture of the original watch. We go back to pocketwatch database you see the name all this stuff but notice the model number 1857if you click on that you get this link down below. Did you notice when you looked at the pictures of the first link where it is keys sat but some of them were key wind some of them were not and how can that be? Well you go to this link and scroll down and look at all the 1857 models. this is where the confusion becomes were using it to identify a specific watch and it refers to a model that came in a whole bunch of different variations. So until we get a picture of the actual watch we don't actually know what we have.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/guide/company/waltham/model/18s/model-1857

let's look an example of the problem of model numbers first this one appears to be too old for this parts catalog. I need to run away right now but I might have a slightly older one I'm not sure so casually I didn't see 1857 but you look at the other watches you'll see all the variations of dials and then go and pick one of the 18 size watches and look at all the parts variations for an exact model number the parts are not very exact end up with way too many variations. This becomes a major problem when you're trying to repair watches pocket watches in particular is that none of the parts conceivably will interchange.

It's a long story but I know someone who accumulated a whole bunch of 12 size Illinois watches one of the reasons it was done because they had all identical parts according to the parts catalog. But having worked on those particular 12 size watches one day I went through I can't remember how many just to get the balance jewels because are so many variations for seemingly identical watch that was made much later than this watch. Waltham that I find tends to the worst for this sort of thing there's so much variation to find a watch like model number and no it doesn't fit the watch your working on. Although sometimes you get it to work at a pallet fork once was able to disassemble it mix-and-match the pieces I had put it all back together and it worked

https://archive.org/details/catalogueofwalth00walt/page/n1/mode/2up

 

 

 

 

[Galilea]

Yes I am always wondering what happened when I come upon a 21j watch in silveroid or a 7j in 18k. I already imagine the people who once handled my watches, these disparate pairings double my musing. I guess environmental factors such as availabilty determine the case/watch marriage, but there might be other reasons.

Cheap case/ pricey watch combo reasons: there were probably plenty of folks who simply liked the way a cheap case looked, or people who spent their last dime on a quality watch and went nearly broke doing just that, or probably there were some who lacked impulse control (like some of us), thus took whatever case they could get right that very second.

Cheap watch/pricey case scenarios: None good that I can think of. At worst someone trying to project an inflated worth for criminal reasons, at best trying to project an inflated worth for reasons of low self esteem. And of course, there are many more reasons.

 

[RichardHarris123]

In my opinion gold is a poor choice for watch cases.  Too soft and at higher karats looks like brass. Good quality modern watches come in stainless Steel, tungsten and ceramic, along with gold.  I don't think the case material relates to the quality of the movement. 

[Galilea]

Yes, well and then there is that. Righto, good reason to choose the cheaper case for an expensive watch.

[JohnR725]

6 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

In my opinion gold is a poor choice for watch cases.  Too soft and at higher karats looks like brass. Good quality modern watches come in stainless Steel, tungsten and ceramic, along with gold.  I don't think the case material relates to the quality of the movement. 

I supposed to some degree this discussion could become like lubrication lots of discussion and disagreements. Rolex for instance could be a nice stainless steel case and still be exceedingly expensive. although an older Rolex could be in a well worn stainless steel case and still be exceedingly expensive. on the other hand how many stainless steel cases would you find a Patek Philippe in? You might find one of those in the platinum cakes. My favorite for casing watches his Omega you have a case number if you have access to the database you can look up the crystal then you discover which one he looking for? You could have gold, or rose gold or stainless steel or gold and stainless all for the same watch.  so yes realistically the case should have nothing to do with the movement but if you're selling a really expensive movement you're probably going to put it in a more expensive case.

Oh and then one of the problems with pocket watches in addition to picking and choosing they can wear out. Then you would go to the store and get a new one. Sometimes you can locate a pocket watch case you can see were the screws currently are for holding it in and then you look carefully you'll find places where other screws once were so the case once housed a different movements.

Then personally one of the materials I like for pocket watches is silver I've always liked the look of silver and silver is really nice if it's engine turned it can be really beautiful.