How can I create a metal "jewel" to replace a broken jewel and cut a precision sized pivot hole?

[GregG]

I've been trying to figure out how to replace a rubbed in jewel for a watch that I have.  Unfortunately, no one regularly manufactures rubbed in jewels anymore.  I saw a video of someone grinding down a friction jewel to fit into the setting, which is something that I could do.  But the jewel was an unusual size of OD/ID that I wasn't able to find (I don't remember what the dimensions were off hand).  And on top of that, Bergeon has recently ceased production of a lot of their jewel sizes, so now jewels are even harder to find...

In an earlier thread I had created, someone linked to two jewel manufacturers, one based in Switzerland, one based in the US.  I reached out to them with the dimensions.  The Swiss one wanted $1,900 USD per jewel + $120 USD for shipping.  The other one is based on the US, and I'm still waiting to hear back from them.  But the guy said he's reaching out to their manufacturer in Switzerland for an estimate, so I'm not holding my breath.

So, I'm looking to other means, such as making a metal "jewel" out of some soft metal like copper to try and replace the broken jewel.  Cutting the outside down to size shouldn't be too hard on a lathe, but I know nothing about cutting an internal hole to the proper size.  Anyone have insight or suggestions on how to do that?  I have a ¹⁰⁄₁₀₀ mm and a ²⁰⁄₁₀₀ mm drill bit.  I might be able to get away with those, but the side shake will definitely be rather large, and I don't know how true those measurements are.  I think I calculated I needed a ¹⁶⁄₁₀₀ mm hole to give me proper side shake.  I'll have an extra ⁴⁄₁₀₀ mm if I use the larger drill bit of the two.  Not the end of the world, but I'd like to try a better way if I could.

 

Edited June 2, 2023 by GregG

[Malocchio]

Maybe you could remove the old jewel, ream the hole a bit larger and insert a Seitz jewel? I made so with a Zenith pocket watch. I even made a video: 

 

Edited June 2, 2023 by Malocchio

[GregG]

I've considered that, but if possible I'd like to avoid that.  It is a permanent alteration, so if I mess up, it's a permanent mess up.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, GregG said:

Bergeon has recently ceased production of a lot of their jewel sizes

Technically I don't think they make anything. They purchase things and redistribute them the jewels themselves came from Seitz.

3 hours ago, GregG said:

"jewel" out of some soft metal like copper

Normally jewels are made out of something hard and copper would be too soft in addition to it's not the best for manufacturing. Worst-case you to purchase a brass bushing the list actually make bushing is to replace jewels. So brass would be a better choice

then I don't suppose you ever want to make your own watch? George Daniels in his book on making a watch tells how to make jewels. If it in necessarily will make the entire jewel you could modify a jewel. But still requires tools and equipment the probably don't have

3 hours ago, GregG said:

rubbed in jewel for a watch that I have

No picture of the watch? Yes really do like to see pictures of naked watches

3 hours ago, GregG said:

The other one is based on the US, and I'm still waiting to hear back from them. 

In real life there's probably more than one manufacture of jewels even in the US. There used to be I think in Montana on a Indian reservation where they did jewels. This is because in Montana they had natural sapphires now everything will be synthetic. I believe Bulova made considerable use of them they may still be in business somewhere.

3 hours ago, GregG said:

Anyone have insight or suggestions on how to do that?

Standard method in watch repair is to use a reamer a tiny one. That is once you get a tiny hole. Then uses smoothing broach to make it nice and smooth.

You could of course look for assortments of burnished in jewels I've occasionally seen a wall from assortment once come up on eBay and there should be random assortments because I've seen that they do exist or at least did exist at one time. Usually the burnished in jewels are easier to tell because are usually a light pale pink which brings up the problem of modern jewels being a beautiful ruby red they stand out instantaneously typically that you replaced the jewel.

2 hours ago, Malocchio said:

Maybe you could remove the old jewel, ream the hole a bit larger and insert ja Seitz jewel?

Strangely enough a lot of people frown on this method. They want to keep their watch  exactly the way it is although if you look in the Seitz Book this is exactly what they're telling you to do anyway. The only downfalls are the ruby red color of modern jewels, the burnished in jewels look small but can be big and end up with a really big jewel if you're not careful. Or worst-case if the jewels getting too big like what recently happened the balance jewel they also make bushings to put their jewels in to see you put the bushing in the first and then put in the jewel.

Fortunately for me no one is ever going to see my ruby red jewel what's underneath on the main plate. But I have done it with visible jewels that's done well nobody's going to notice except of course the color. It's a shame they didn't make pale pink synthetic jewels

Then regarding Seitz I'm going to attach the manual for that as there's something interesting in their actually a lot of things are of interest in their. For instance on  PDF page 40 we have brass bushings. Worst-case you can make a brass bushing.there already made if you can find them

3 hours ago, GregG said:

and I don't know how true those measurements are

This is where if you're making a bushing and your opening up the whole you make it fit whatever you have. You do have to be careful though when you're doing bushings. Especially if you are doing a clock typically watchmakers who do clocks make the holes for the pivots way to height and end up with a clock that will not run at all. So in other words you have a hole your opening it up you put the pivot in and it seems to fit nice it might even spin nice. Then you put the wheel in with both plates put the plates together and oh dear it no longer spins.. I once fixed someone's Howard banjo clock because whoever did it before me republished every single hole which was stupid because the plates were extremely hard bronze they would've never of worn but the perception was that there was too much play which there was not and the clock would run because it was pushed to height. so if you make a replacement brass jewel once it's in place you would open it up to the final size. It also make sure that when you put the wheel in all by itself it should spin nicely with a puff of air for instance.

This is why referring to the PDF again PDF page 29 as a really nice gauge. This is where you can fit your wheel in the holes and see where it fits the best. Otherwise typically wind up making things too tight and they would work right.

 

Seitz book.pdf

[GregG]

Hi John, thanks for the detailed response.  There's a lot to go through, so I will have to take some time to ingest it all.  I've taken some pictures of the movement.  It's not much since it was already disassembled.  I don't have Daniels' book.  Could you briefly describe the process of making a jewel.  And also I think I might've figured out a workaround, since I have some suitable friction jewels.

Like all modern friction jewels, the bottom is squared off, and the top side, with the oil well, is angled. The edge of the jewel that has the bezel rubbed over it must be angled, but the inside of the setting is square. So instead of grinding down the flat edge of the jewel to fit in the setting, I'll set the jewel in upside down. The oil well will be on the wrong side, but I figured capillary action will hold enough oil where it needs to be.

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, GregG said:

I don't have Daniels' book.  Could you briefly describe the process of making a jewel.

Normally I'm very happy to answer questions but in this particular case I would get Daniel's book if you want the answer. This is because it is actually a lot of steps required to make a jewel. It is much much easier to modify an existing jewel that can be done in just a few seconds if you grasp how versus making a jewel which Basically requires a lot of effort and some tools.

https://www.amazon.com/Watchmaking-George-Daniels/dp/0856677043

7 hours ago, GregG said:

I'll set the jewel in upside down

Are you concerned about changing the end shake because of this?