Elgin 18s Grade 207 movement only - full plate exploration

[Watchoutnow]

I purchased an Elgin 18s Grade 207 (circa 1899) scrap movement just to get acquainted with full plate movements. I received the movement with a damaged dial, missing sub seconds hand and missing minute hand. The movement ran for about 24hrs on a full wind, which isn’t bad but I’m sure it should have been capable of more than that. It didn’t have a bad trace but had a low amplitude, but I really didn’t have a lift angle to input. 

I realized how the dial got damaged. All the dial feet had been broken off of it. I believe someone tried to pry the dial up without backing the dial feet screws out all the way, there is a significant indent on the dial feet and the screws have to be backed out fully, not just loosened slightly. This is probably why the sub seconds hand was also missing and I think the sub seconds pivot was broken off the seconds wheel. There may have been just enough of a nub on the seconds wheel dial side pivot to hold it in place so the movement could run. 

I disassembled the movement and had difficulty removing the train full plate. I tried to pry it up and I believe by removing it with uneven pressure I caused the upper pivot on the pallet fork to snap. In any case, some procedure needs to be followed in order not to snap the pallet fork pivot and to pull the plate straight up. 

I decided to go ahead and clean the movement so I could test the efficacy of ZEP 505 degreaser, which seemed to work well (rinsed in three stages of IPA). I discovered that the crown wheel screw is a LH thread without breaking the screw. I had difficulty reassembling the keyless works and struggled for 30 mins before I realized I had placed the crown wheel in upside down – it isn’t obvious that it has an upside.  

I tried to reassemble the train without the pallet fork but I think having a broken sub sec pivot on the seconds wheel made it even more difficult. I couldn’t get the train the spin free. 

So, my full assessment is that this movement is not for a novice and I would do more research on repairing these before attempting an actual repair. 

[RichardHarris123]

Full details plates are difficult, probably not best for beginners.  Photos help. 

[JohnR725]

18 hours ago, Watchoutnow said:

In any case, some procedure needs to be followed in order not to snap the pallet fork pivot and to pull the plate straight up. 

Unless the pallet fork was stuck in place due to old oil typically disassembly isn't the issue. It's reassembly that confuses people and leads to broken pivots and possibly broken jewels and other bad stuff.

18 hours ago, Watchoutnow said:

I had difficulty reassembling the keyless works and struggled for 30 mins before I realized I had placed the crown wheel in upside down – it isn’t obvious that it has an upside.  

Always best on anything you've never seen before to photograph it.  American pocket watches tend to have quite a bit of variations in the keyless works it's always best The photograph stuff.

18 hours ago, Watchoutnow said:

So, my full assessment is that this movement is not for a novice and I would do more research on repairing these before attempting an actual repair. 

Yes full plate watches are not really for the beginner. It's a really hard watch to see things because everything is hidden between the plates. Much better if you'd start with something a little smaller like a 16 size watch where things are typically visible

[Watchoutnow]

I did photograph the keyless works before I worked on it and it didn't help because the crown wheel is hidden under a cam that moves the setting wheels. As I said, upon inspection after removal of the wheel it isn't obvious that it has a right side up. The keyless works really isn't too complicated to figure out with the exception of putting the wheel in the right orientation.