Jump to content

Helicopter effect - what causes and how to solve?


Recommended Posts

Hi!

I own a Davosa Ternos with sw200 and recently I have noticed the rotor spins a little when I want to wind manually. 

I am not used to the rotor mechanism so what use to cause this issue and is there any procedure to try solve it? I suspect something bad lubrication .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe it’s gummed up reverser wheels in the automatic works. Same issue on the 2824 that the sw200 is based on.

Those reverser wheels should generally be replaced at every service. According to the tech sheets they shouldn’t ever be cleaned but they end up being cleaned and not lubricated correctly, which should be a dip in Lubeta V105.

Depending on the state of yours, they might need to be replaced. That being said, how bad is the spinning when you manually wind? Rotor will move slightly when winding and keeping the watch at a 30deg angle, but s stiff winding stem and spinning of the rotor means seized reversers.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Kalanag said:

Imho it is worth trying to thoroughly clean the reversers and just oil the pivots (as with the Rolex reversers). If hand winding remains stiff replace them. If it turns out well leave them dry.

Hmmmm, for something that has so much friction/movement I'm curious why you'd suggest running them dry? Granted, overlubrication is a bad idea, but no lubrication? Genuine question.

V105 is probably expensive for what it is (and we can't even get it locally), but a mix of 1 part 9010 to 33 parts IPA is a good substitute and works very well.

Edited by gbyleveldt
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, gbyleveldt said:

Hmmmm, for something that has so much friction/movement I'm curious why you'd suggest running them dry? Granted, overlubrication is a bad idea, but no lubrication? Genuine question.

Rolex does it. It‘s worth a try!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do Rolex specifically say don't lube them or is it missing from the lube chart because their trained techs know that part is replaced at service with new factory  lubricated replacements.?

Just a thought that's all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, gbyleveldt said:

Those reverser wheels should generally be replaced at every service. According to the tech sheets

snipped out an image from the tech sheet and no cleaning only replacing if there's a problem

14 hours ago, Kalanag said:

Imho it is worth trying to thoroughly clean the reversers and just oil the pivots (as with the Rolex reversers). If hand winding remains stiff replace them. If it turns out well leave them dry.

not cover her to try but the various reversers all required different methods of lubrication so just because it works for Rolex may not mean that it's going to work for you.

16 hours ago, gbyleveldt said:

Same issue on the 2824 that the sw200 is based on.

as far as reverser wheels go I wonder if does any difference between the 2824 and the 2824-2? I'm currently looking at the tech sheet had a very clearly says not to be cleaned you're supposed to replace them.

16 hours ago, gbyleveldt said:

dip in Lubeta V105

 

10 hours ago, gbyleveldt said:

V105 is probably expensive for what it is (and we can't even get it locally), but a mix of 1 part 9010 to 33 parts IPA is a good substitute and works very well.

I met a watchmaker from Alaska once in he said he couldn't get it either I think what he was doing since I bumped into him in the material house he was purchasing it and I guess he was going to smuggle it to Alaska. My understanding is the solvent is the problem they don't like to transport biplane supposedly

then at the link I have here you can download Omega working instruction number 40

https://www.cousinsuk.com/document/search?SearchString=working

in the working instruction number 40 on lubrication I snipped out an image of Omega's recommendation for reverser wheels. it also explains how you can mixture alone which is basically just a tiny bit and 9010 as mentioned above mixed in some solvent.

Then those reverser wheels look a lot like eta reverser wheels versus omega reverser wheels?  in any case there is a link to the v105 which I think would be better to use on these reverser wheels versus running dry. My experience once with running an Omega reverser dry was it came back fortunately that was a long time ago when Omega parts were still available from the local material house and I just replaced it rather than trying to figure out how to disassemble the Omega one which can be disassembled if you have the right tools.

https://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/specialities

1 hour ago, Kalanag said:

Rolex does it. It‘s worth a try!

definitely worth a try and get back to us with the results. The results might not show up right away it might take a little while to see whether it's going to work or not but it's definitely worth a try.

 

 

 

 

 

 

SW 200 reverser wheels.JPG

Omega reverser wheels 105.JPG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks @JohnR725

The tip about making your own V105 mix did come from a friend who mentioned the source being that specific Omega work instruction. And yes, V105 is a hazardous substance so can only be shipped by ground - hence the reason for using alternatives for some of us on different continents.

As the ETA sheets suggest, you should replace those reverser wheels when they have a problem as they physically cannot be taken apart. That being said, you have nothing to lose by cleaning and properly lubricating them again (provided they’re not torn up or worn already). Key word being correct lubrication! The design of Rolex reversers are completely different to that of the ETA (and again different to that of Omega), hence my question to @Kalanagabove. I can see how running Rolex reversers dry could work due to how they’re designed and the different materials used.

That being said, some Omega reversers can be taken apart (like on an old 565 movement I did recently), unlike most of the ETA ones that are pressed together. I have a video coming up showing the process, once I can get my lazy ass to finish editing it. In my case, the reverser on the Omega was gummed up from previous incorrect lubrication, not seized from wear. Considering the age of the movement and spending weeks looking for a stupidly expensive NOS replacement, it made sense to attempt cleaning and lubricating it again, as opposed to simply replacing it. This approach is obviously only valid on a case by case basis. ETA reversers are also reasonably easy to still find new, where vintage Omega ones aren’t - so on 2824’s and 7750’s I just replace them as they’re relatively cheap from places like Cousins.

Edited by gbyleveldt
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The forces reverser wheels have to deal with are very low due to the gear ratio of the automatic winding mechanism. That‘s why they stop functioning and manual winding gets stiff if a visible amount of oil or any debris is present. In my limited experience dry reversers work fine. I‘m not sure whether the „homeopatic“ Lubeta oiling does really work from a tribolocical point of view. Or is it just for peace of mind? I look forward to hearing from any real experience and testing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, gbyleveldt said:

That being said, some Omega reversers can be taken apart (like on an old 565 movement I did recently)

 

ideally to disassemble the Omega reversers you're supposed to have tools which don't seem to exist in the real world.

A long time ago the watch companies used to have local service providers individuals authorized to work on their watches. yes in this day and age with service centers it's strange to think about that shops were authorized to handle warranty repairs and service watches for the various  companies. One particular shop I worked at was authorized to do Omega watches so I was really looking forward to seeing the tools for the reverse wheels. unfortunately I was disappointed no tools but a different procedure?

before we get the different procedure let me explain a little slice of horological lubrication history that you're probably not aware  aware of.  I'm not sure how long this slice of history lasted I don't know how far back it goes let us just say may be around the 70s to the early 80s perhaps approximately. Watch shops servicing lots of watches at bargain wholesale prices. Needed a way to do lots of watches and innovative people came up with solutions. I like to call the solutions miracle lube although one of the products actually was called miracle lube another was called one step and other companies had other products. just think how fast watch repair would be if the movement disassembled was run through the cleaning machine and basically case back up again. Although you were supposed to remove the balance wheel and not get the stuff on the hairspring. Typically the shops would run it through and just rinse it off and put a little oil on the balance pivots in your good to go.

So these miracle substances would be in the last rinse jar of the cleaning process. They went by a variety of names and a minor confusion on my part which occurred while doing this message which is a confusion? I thought one of the products was dual lube like perhaps two separate substances but I see that I got the spelling incorrectly and it appears to be it was only one solution.

Now back to the reverser wheel problem for Omega service center that I worked at. The reversers were cleaned and placed in the Duo lube  no disassembly required and it seemed to work as far as I can remember.

it looks like only clock people are currently embracing this innovative technology I snipped  out an image off of a website. Then while I was there I looked at the material safety sheets and we do get one for the Duo lube. It also helps us to understand how the stuff worked somewhat more actually called plastic lube so I have no idea what was in those. This particular one is basically the rinse and mineral oil which would be a high temperature oil. So basically year nice clean watch or reverser wheels are covered with rinse and oil as the rinse evaporates the oil seeks all the  cracks and crannies by capillary action hike the pivots and your watch and/or reverser wheels are now lubricated.

Obviously because were not doing it anymore who knows what the consequence long-term to watches were. But for the reverser wheel like Omega where you just need a really in amount of lubrication it does seem like an ideal solution.

Omega reverser disassembly.JPG

clock lube.JPG

duo_lube.pdf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks @JohnR725 that was actually a pretty interesting view on what watch servicing was like back when these weren’t accessories but critical to every day life.

When we get to service watches today, we’re less concerned about how long it takes but more interested in enjoying the process.

In the case of the above 565 reverser wheel you are correct of course - there’s no tool available today to take that wheel apart. I used my 00 tweezers to remove that top nut as they’re more than stout enough for the job. I guess I could make a tool for that, but it’s not like I do these that often.

I suspect during normal service it would be ok to not strip that reverser wheel - just clean and lube. But in my case that wheel was the cause of the auto winding works not working properly and also made manual winding of the watch very difficult. Plus, I was curious 😀

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share



  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Ladies and gents, I found the most awesome old gold watch chain!  It has spring links!  I am always so careful with my antique pocket watches, and still fear to drop them, even while on a chain. I've re-staffed a number of balance wheels that no doubt suffered a similar fate. But this chain has lessened that fear somewhat.  So my "watch of today" was my beautiful Elgin 339 clipped to this chain.
    • For me, there’s no binary yes/no answer to this. It really is a matter of feel, experience, inspection under magnification, the age of the movement and what a replacement costs vs invested effort to “revive” it that all play a role determining the answer above. For an Omega 56x series reverser wheel you’ll spend more time trying to revive a reverser (which, by the way is also much more serviceable, but also harder and more expensive to find a replacement for) than you would an a Sellita SW200 where replacements are cheap and easy to find.
    • That's what I did after my Pearl machine stopped working. I've run about 5 watches through it so far and get results as expected. One interesting note is that their customer service says the machine comes with a 2 year warranty but that is not indicated on the website and when asked via email they are unable to provide a copy of the warranty, which I believe runs counter to US federal law 🤷‍♂️  Luckily for me the service center they use for repairs is local to me so if I ever do need to have it serviced I won't have to ship it in its HUGE box.
    • @JohnR725I live in a “3rd world” country (South Africa) and even here you can’t make a middle class living charging $120 to service a watch. I make many times that spending that same amount of time in my day job. But quote the average someone $200 to service their inherited vintage Omega (that stopped working 20 years ago) and you’re told you’re effing mad. This is why watchmaking is dead as a profession in modern times; everyone wants that cool mechanical watch, no one considers what it costs to maintain it. A wrist watch is no longer an essential tool, it’s novelty jewellery. So I do it as a hobby, a make a few videos and I fix broken things. If this hobby can make a little money to at least contribute to its vast expenses then that’s a bonus. I have many other hobbies that are just money pits, so there’s at least that. Speaking of making videos: there’s a lot of criticism being levelled at YouTube watchmakers, either because they don’t show enough detail, or that they talk too much, or that they’re hacks, or whatever other negative thing you can imagine. But these YouTube watchmakers have done more to expose watchmaking to the average Joe than what any of the professional watchmaking institutions have ever done. Professional watchmakers scoff at these “hacks” in their comment sections but fail to see how these YouTubers create interest in the average Joe and turn them into enthusiasts. Anyway, enough rambling from me…
    • This Suizo 1950s AS1361N 10 micron gold plated Automatic got an outing today. It is a gents watch, but is quite a diminutive piece (as was typical for the time). It is also very well engineered. The plating has a few wear marks, but other than that it is looking pretty good for its age. There is one minor discrepancy though. The dial states 25 jewels but the rotor says 21 jewels. Oh well, I guess nobody's perfect. It got a new crystal as the old one had resisted my best polishing efforts, but still wasn't up to scratch. I also treated it to a period correct 17mm dark green leather band from a job lot of 1950s or 1960s straps I picket up recently.  Before you ask, no, I am not responsible for all of those scratches on the rotor, they were there long before I got my hands on it. Suizo is almost certainly a Achille Hirsch brand.  
×
×
  • Create New...