Balance staff into jacot 😒

[Neverenoughwatches]

Eyup muckers hope you all well. So into my first endeavour of using the Jacot. Last week i had two new tool arrivals in the the post. A DL PP make and a WIT Jacot. The WIT is in the better condition so i tnought i would start there. Been fiddling around with an old well knackered Osco movement back and forth for a ages, basically just abusing it for practising things i haven’t tried before inbetween some repair. Trashing bits and pieces and seeing if i could bring them back to life as you do. Its basically become my whipping boy movement. So he's  down for another session, balance assembly out, collet off and ready to fit the staff and wheel into the Jacot after a measure of the staff pivot which came out at 0.7mm. Relatively small for my first attempt.  Aannndd man what a bartender to set up, talk about bloody hard to fit the staff. I'm  doing this with a x10 loupe attached to some +3 reading glasses, so magnification is not the best but its ok i can see reasonably well what im doing. Now i thought i had steady hands i can manipulate hs to a good standard if i had to blow my own trombone. But this is another level, using a loop and with my hands in the air, in the gym this free hand completely unassisted exercise is what Bros call doing it RAW. Yep this is pretty raw, I've nearly trashed the pivot 3 times already, but its holding out to my abuse. Any tips anyone ? As cool as i am , I'm starting to feel a little stressed.

  On 9/28/2022 at 8:38 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

Eyup muckers hope you all well. So into my first endeavour of using the Jacot. Last week i had two new tool arrivals in the the post. A DL PP make and a WIT Jacot. The WIT is in the better condition so i tnought i would start there. Been fiddling around with an old well knackered Osco movement back and forth for a ages, basically just abusing it for practising things i haven’t tried before inbetween some repair. Trashing bits and pieces and seeing if i could bring them back to life as you do. Its basically become my whipping boy movement. So he's  down for another session, balance assembly out, collet off and ready to fit the staff and wheel into the Jacot after a measure of the staff pivot which came out at 0.7mm. Relatively small for my first attempt.  Aannndd man what a bartender to set up, talk about bloody hard to fit the staff. I'm  doing this with a x10 loupe attached to some +3 reading glasses, so magnification is not the best but its ok i can see reasonably well what im doing. Now i thought i had steady hands i can manipulate hs to a good standard if i had to blow my own trombone. But this is another level, using a loop and with my hands in the air, in the gym this free hand completely unassisted exercise is what Bros call doing it RAW. Yep this is pretty raw, I've nearly trashed the pivot 3 times already, but its holding out to my abuse. Any tips anyone ? As cool as i am , I'm starting to feel a little stressed.

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Its in. Over half an hour and 2 cuppas later. Man tell you what, all respect to anyone that can get a small balance staff set up in a jacot tool straight off the bat. Tbh i will be surprised if i havent trashed at least one of the pivots., though the balance wheel is spinning very well with a blower. I may be lucky.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[VWatchie]

  On 9/28/2022 at 8:38 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

Now i thought i had steady hands i can manipulate hs to a good standard if i had to blow my own trombone. But this is another level, using a loop and with my hands in the air, in the gym this free hand completely unassisted exercise is what Bros call doing it RAW.

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I think you already know this, but anyway...

Steady hands are the effect of being completely relaxed. The more difficult something is purely motorically, the more we tend to tense up. It's paradox and it needs to be practised continually as it is one of the most difficult things to do when working in the world of micromechanics. Being tense also poisons the joy of working with watches. I have never fitted a balance in my Jacot but just trying to imagine it I can feel how my muscles start to tense up.

Anyway, well done, you got it in there! 

Edited October 8, 2022 by VWatchie

[Neverenoughwatches]

  On 10/5/2022 at 7:28 AM, VWatchie said:

I think you already know this, but anyway...

Steady hands are the effect of being completely relaxed. The more difficult something is purely motorically, the more we tend to tense up. It's paradox and it needs to be practised continually as it is of the most difficult things to do when working in the world of micromechanics. Being tense also poisons the joy of working with watches. I have never fitted a balance in my Jacot but just trying to imagine it I can feel how my muscles start to tense up.

Anyway, well done, you got it in there! 

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I was starting to get a tad frustrated towards the end. There is a knack to it, having the balance wheel hanging from the wheel's driver on the pulley and then lifting the pivots into the pivot holes on the lantern did eventually get me there.It was more of a visual problem to be honest, my hands are pretty steady which is why I'm not bad with hairsprings. I was using very cheap +3 glasses and a very cheap x5 loupe.  It was about getting close enough to see and then being to close to work, i had to find that right balance. Which i dont think there is for me with loupes. Under a scope i dont think i would have an issue. I have an adjustable bench poising tool, setting a balance in that is the same principle. Under a scope that takes me seconds. 

[mikepilk]

I can confirm that using the scope makes all the difference !

I was trying to polish a pivot - using a loupe puts your head in too close. 
Trying to get the wheel to sit in place while you get the string, burnisher etc in to place takes 3 hands and 5 goes.

BTW instead of a bow, I use one of these things (don't know what they're called) - has a retractable string to hold your pass card. Fasten the end down, wrap it round the pulley wheel, pull it out, then let in wind back in, and repeat 

[Anthony7]

Incredible, I am in awe of machinists full stop as it is the essence of engineering being able to make and shape things from metal, but on such a tiny scale as watch parts usually are is just another level. sometimes I look at watch screws in my microscope (I rarely use loupes) and think how can someone have made this tiny thing with so much accuracy...

[mikepilk]

  On 10/5/2022 at 4:21 PM, Anthony7 said:

Incredible, I am in awe of machinists full stop as it is the essence of engineering being able to make and shape things from metal, but on such a tiny scale as watch parts usually are is just another level. sometimes I look at watch screws in my microscope (I rarely use loupes) and think how can someone have made this tiny thing with so much accuracy...

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Same here with those REALLY small screws. I'd like to see how such a tiny thread is cut, and the slot in the head.

[Neverenoughwatches]

  On 10/5/2022 at 4:05 PM, mikepilk said:

use one of these things (don't know what they're called) - has a retractable string to hold your pass card. Fasten the end down, wrap it round the pulley wheel, pull it out, then let in wind back in, and repeat 

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Thanks mike , I've seen that used and thought a better idea than the bow as well, i assume less concentration for driving the pulley and more focus for working on the pivot.

  On 10/5/2022 at 4:21 PM, Anthony7 said:

Incredible, I am in awe of machinists full stop as it is the essence of engineering being able to make and shape things from metal, but on such a tiny scale as watch parts usually are is just another level. sometimes I look at watch screws in my microscope (I rarely use loupes) and think how can someone have made this tiny thing with so much accuracy...

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Less than a couple of hundred years ago most parts were made by hand with some help from small hand driven machinery. By candlelight, and then embellished the movements looks as well now thats bloody incredible. 

  On 10/5/2022 at 4:44 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thanks mike , I've seen that used and thought a better idea than the bow as well, i assume less concentration for driving the pulley and more focus for working on the pivot.

Less than a couple of hundred years ago most parts were made by hand with some help from small hand driven machinery. By candlelight, and then embellished the movements looks as well now thats bloody incredible. 

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I have a pocket watch from 1856, i look at the hairspring on it and wonder how they drew the fineness from a piece of steel all that time ago to create it. No multi million costing swatch or Rolex factory then .

[Anthony7]

Well we have our own local superstar of clock and watchmaking in John Harrison. the machines he made were world beating both literally and insofar as he cracked the problem of seaborne timekeeping and won the longitude prize. the movie of his story is well worth a watch...

you could even clock it...

 

this ones better that one is some serialised netflix version of the Harrison story...

https://ww0.123-movies.bz/longitude/

I thought it particularly interesting that his early clocks had no jeweling but used lignum vitae as these oily woods are incredibly hard wearing and are self oiling...

Edited October 5, 2022 by Anthony7
crap link

[Neverenoughwatches]

  On 10/5/2022 at 5:02 PM, Anthony7 said:

lignum vitae. 

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I once tried to turn a piece of this stuff, into some spinning tops for my children . It was as hard as iron, i had to use a sharpened masonry drill bit in the end. Hardest wood on the planet.

  On 10/5/2022 at 4:05 PM, mikepilk said:

I can confirm that using the scope makes all the difference !

I was trying to polish a pivot - using a loupe puts your head in too close. 
Trying to get the wheel to sit in place while you get the string, burnisher etc in to place takes 3 hands and 5 goes.

BTW instead of a bow, I use one of these things (don't know what they're called) - has a retractable string to hold your pass card. Fasten the end down, wrap it round the pulley wheel, pull it out, then let in wind back in, and repeat 

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Your confirmation is confirmed mike Under a scope first attempt one min, second attempt 20 seconds, third attempt about 10 seconds. I found the easiest and safest method is to forget using tweezers and use a rolled up piece of rodico, put a small bend at one end of it , hook it through the balance wheel up against one of the arms. Bring the lantern fully in on the right side, using your right steady hand to drop that side pivot in first , then bring up the pulley side with your left hand and wind in the pulley. Dressing the pivot another story, x20 mag only just gives you enough visual anx i dont think my scope optics are clear enough. Update, no rodico use a bent acupuncture needle to hang the balance wheel from and folded paper to catch the wheel. Literally a few seconds to fit it in place.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[Anthony7]

yes i've never had cause to use it (i build guitars also) but that was part of harrisons genius, his use of materials. He would use all kinds of metals with each other that expanded at different rates that was way ahead of his time and also use of exotic woods like lignum vitae that are self oiling and super hardwearing...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harrison

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

  On 10/6/2022 at 8:50 PM, Anthony7 said:

yes i've never had cause to use it (i build guitars also) but that was part of harrisons genius, his use of materials. He would use all kinds of metals with each other that expanded at different rates that was way ahead of his time and also use of exotic woods like lignum vitae that are self oiling and super hardwearing...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harrison

 

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 Bit heavy for a guitar mate . I'm a joiner and good bench joiner when i put my mind to it. Timber instrument making is a real skill . 

[Anthony7]

But I thought he was born and bred in Barrow, but it turns out he's a Wezzer from Wakey...But that claims him as this side of the river. Funny that as I was wondering why I never met anyone else from Lincolnshire that ever knew  owt about owt. But now the mystery is resolved...But apparently Newton was from Lincolnshire...Always the exception to every rule...

Well like all things I am a self taught joiner/carpenter as that was my last obsession before watches. Guitars, as I play and was a musician. At the moment I am ripping off a Fender Jaguar (or the Blaguar as I call it) from some plans I got, as I love the shape of them and can't afford a real 60's one. but to me all guitars are just bits of wood and metal. It doesnt matter if its from the 60's or yesterday. but for me the real art of guitar making is playability, it might well look great but if it dont sound great too then its a failure as far as I am concerned...So before any electronics are dealt with it must pass muster as a playable intstrument that holds its tune and intonates well...(intonation being it sounding one octave higher in pitch than the open string at the 12th fret or one octave.)

Same with watches. theres ony so much I will pay for a watch. I'd never have a rolex, even though I can afford one, too much of a care owning one. For me style isn't about the price, that picture of that mint cauny prima i posted says alot more about you when you wear that on your wrist than a rolex does...It oozes style... 

so what would be your thought on these as a way to accrue a large selection of random bits and bobs as theres quite a selection there for very little money... Don't know if you know it but I have found Etsy of all places to be a goldmine of watch related stuff...Selling movements by the bucketload, mostly to people making jewelry and whathave you out of it...Imagine that some lunkhead putting a really expensive movement into that clear plastic stuff they use...

https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/119809863/steampunk-watch-pieces-and-parts-10g-of?click_key=10ea335fc52bcbaa510462d3263cbd50761d9b13%3A119809863&click_sum=1383dd41&ref=internal_similar_listing_bot-3&listing_id=119809863&listing_slug=steampunk-watch-pieces-and-parts-10g-of

i havent bought anything by the gram since midget gems...

https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/1281658208/georgian-verge-fusee-pocket-watch?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=minute+hand&ref=sr_gallery-2-16&cns=1&organic_search_click=1

See what I mean...

[Neverenoughwatches]

  On 10/6/2022 at 9:51 PM, Anthony7 said:

But I thought he was born and bred in Barrow, but it turns out he's a Wezzer from Wakey...But that claims him as this side of the river. Funny that as I was wondering why I never met anyone else from Lincolnshire that ever knew  owt about owt. But now the mystery is resolved...But apparently Newton was from Lincolnshire...Always the exception to every rule...

Well like all things I am a self taught joiner/carpenter as that was my last obsession before watches. Guitars, as I play and was a musician. At the moment I am ripping off a Fender Jaguar (or the Blaguar as I call it) from some plans I got, as I love the shape of them and can't afford a real 60's one. but to me all guitars are just bits of wood and metal. It doesnt matter if its from the 60's or yesterday. but for me the real art of guitar making is playability, it might well look great but if it dont sound great too then its a failure as far as I am concerned...So before any electronics are dealt with it must pass muster as a playable intstrument that holds its tune and intonates well...(intonation being it sounding one octave higher in pitch than the open string at the 12th fret or one octave.)

Same with watches. theres ony so much I will pay for a watch. I'd never have a rolex, even though I can afford one, too much of a care owning one. For me style isn't about the price, that picture of that mint cauny prima i posted says alot more about you when you wear that on your wrist than a rolex does...It oozes style... 

so what would be your thought on these as a way to accrue a large selection of random bits and bobs as theres quite a selection there for very little money... Don't know if you know it but I have found Etsy of all places to be a goldmine of watch related stuff...Selling movements by the bucketload, mostly to people making jewelry and whathave you out of it...Imagine that some lunkhead putting a really expensive movement into that clear plastic stuff they use...

https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/119809863/steampunk-watch-pieces-and-parts-10g-of?click_key=10ea335fc52bcbaa510462d3263cbd50761d9b13%3A119809863&click_sum=1383dd41&ref=internal_similar_listing_bot-3&listing_id=119809863&listing_slug=steampunk-watch-pieces-and-parts-10g-of

i havent bought anything by the gram since midget gems...

https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/1281658208/georgian-verge-fusee-pocket-watch?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=minute+hand&ref=sr_gallery-2-16&cns=1&organic_search_click=1

See what I mean...

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Haha . I used to love midget gems and chewing nuts. You haven't said where in Hull you lived matey.

  On 10/7/2022 at 8:22 AM, Neverenoughwatches said:

Haha . I used to love midget gems and chewing nuts. You haven't said where in Hull you lived matey.

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Ha forget that matey just had a look back. We dont always get notifications to replies fof some reason.

[Neverenoughwatches]

  On 10/5/2022 at 5:02 PM, Anthony7 said:

Well we have our own local superstar of clock and watchmaking in John Harrison. the machines he made were world beating both literally and insofar as he cracked the problem of seaborne timekeeping and won the longitude prize. the movie of his story is well worth a watch...

you could even clock it...

 

this ones better that one is some serialised netflix version of the Harrison story...

https://ww0.123-movies.bz/longitude/

I thought it particularly interesting that his early clocks had no jeweling but used lignum vitae as these oily woods are incredibly hard wearing and are self oiling...

Expand  

 

  On 10/6/2022 at 9:51 PM, Anthony7 said:

Funny that as I was wondering why I never met anyone else from Lincolnshire that ever knew  owt about owt.

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Haha , would you dare have told the Iron  Lady that ?  After a few pints maybe. I used to think she was a cougar when i was a teenager. Lol. But then i am rather strange , maybe i just like dominant women or maybe just any woman ?

[MechanicMike]

i'm in the running on the 'Bay for a jacot right now. wish me luck.

[Neverenoughwatches]

  On 10/7/2022 at 10:31 PM, MechanicMike said:

i'm in the running on the 'Bay for a jacot right now. wish me luck.

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Good luck Mike. Can we have a skeg of E ? ( that's look  in Hullian)