Wobbly balance? Swiss Pocketwatch movement

[Charette]

Hi all - I am I to my first ‘real’ practice movement, a pocket watch with a Swiss movement. No markings in terms of what the movement is that I can see. 
I have disassembled and even at first I noticed something was off about the balance. Going to put it back into the main plate and it is ‘wobbly’ about its pivots. 
The best I have to look at the moment is a strong loupe. Pivots appear ok. In the attached photo I have removed the cap jewel to have a look under there. 

With my intro knowledge so far, the only thing I can think of is that the jewel needs to be pushed in - any other suggestions? I don’t think the pivots are broken, but this is best guess based on what I can see.

Thanks!

 

Or, perhaps one of the pivots is broken off. Doesn’t look like this movement has shock protection.

[grsnovi]

The balance staff should have pivots at each end. The jewels (top and bottom) should have cylindrical holes and not be cracked or missing pieces. When you say wobbly, is it possible that you didn't get the pivot seated before you tightened down the balance cock screw?

[JohnR725]

your balance jewel does not look right it looks like a plate jewel. In other words it's flat versus a balance jewel that would have a curved surface.

37 minutes ago, Charette said:

wobbly’ about its pivots

then you need to figure out the type of formal you have? In other words at the pivots bent is that's why it's wobbling or is the entire balance wheel wobbling? In other words when people change the balance staff things happen in the balance wheels no longer flat in relationship to the staff. I have a video below which shows the way the balance should look if you put it in a true and caliber.

https://youtu.be/9n2HxCOU4hA

 

 

 

[Charette]

Thanks @JohnR725and @grsnovi.

I will put the cap jewel back on and try to have a better look at the pivots again.

The wobble is the whole balance, like there is too much space between the top and bottom jewels. I will report back what I can see.

Well, to the best of my ability and the equipment I currently have, I think that both pivots look similar ie. one does not look broken off. Individually, when the balance is out and upside down, and then in and right-side up, the pivots appear to engage in their respective jewels. It is just the space between (way too much) causing the wobble. 

[grsnovi]

1 hour ago, Charette said:

like there is too much space between the top and bottom jewels

That is a common problem. It can mean that the inside edge of the pivot jewel is worn (top and bottom) or it can mean that the jewels need to be adjusted in their setting to remove some of the end shake. It can also mean the the balance staff is worn in the radius between the pivot and he next larger diameter shaft.

@Charette although I've been reading the forums since March, I'm as much of a beginner as you are and while I have taken Mark's third self-pace, online course on FAULT FINDING I probably wouldn't attempt adjusting jewel depths. I don't have the tools to do the job correctly - but I do understand the process.

[Nucejoe]

To check if pivots jump out of the jewel holes,

1- Put the end stones back on both lower and upper jewels

2- Lift one side of the balance wheel to see if they do jump out, best view to observe  is from the side of movement. 

A trick to lower the balance cock is shimming it on the outer bound.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

To check if pivots jump out of the jewel holes,

1- Put the end stones back on both lower and upper jewels

2- Lift one side of the balance wheel to see if they do jump out, best view to observe  is from the side of movement. 

A trick to lower the balance cock is shimming it on the outer bound.

 

Also reversing the capstones Nucejoe, but we dont talk about that one

[Kalanag]

The whole setup doesn‘t look right and seems to be assembled the wrong way. The cap jewel is upside down (as John already mentioned) and the screw tips are not visible in the thread holes.

 

It should look like that:

Edited July 17, 2022 by Kalanag

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 hours ago, Charette said:

Thanks @JohnR725and @grsnovi.

I will put the cap jewel back on and try to have a better look at the pivots again.

The wobble is the whole balance, like there is too much space between the top and bottom jewels. I will report back what I can see.

Well, to the best of my ability and the equipment I currently have, I think that both pivots look similar ie. one does not look broken off. Individually, when the balance is out and upside down, and then in and right-side up, the pivots appear to engage in their respective jewels. It is just the space between (way too much) causing the wobble. 

Is the wobble relative to being about the staffs axis around the jewel hole or the balance wheel centre around the staff perimeter. Two different wobbles that also look different but could be mistaken. You really need to inspect the pivots and jewels under good strong magnification to fully check their wear. There should be no staff axis wobble if both pivot and jewel hole are in good condition and they are staying located with each other. End shake state can be irrelevant as regards to balance wheel wobble or balance staff wobble as long as the pivots are staying located in the jewels within their cylindrical portions . Sideshake is relevant, excessive caused by wear or incorrectly matched pivots and jewels. So unless they are non matching in which case one or the other has been incorrectly replaced. As john has said the top balance jewel looks wrong. 

Edited July 17, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches
Clarification as to initial endshake remark.

[Nucejoe]

 Will you show an image of the lower jewel ( on the mainplate side). 

 

 

@JohnR725      Is turning balance wheel at high speed bad for pivots?     

Like we seen in above vid, when puffed with air, ballance speed is real high.

Your thoughts.  

Thanks in advance.

[Charette]

2 hours ago, Kalanag said:

The whole setup doesn‘t look right and seems to be assembled the wrong way. The cap jewel is upside down (as John already mentioned) and the screw tips are not visible in the thread holes.

 

It should look like that:

My photo is from the top and I have the cap jewel removed. There are no screw tips to see as I have removed them, but if they were in you would be looking at their heads, the way this movement is assembled.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 minutes ago, Charette said:

My photo is from the top and I have the cap jewel removed. There are no screw tips to see as I have removed them, but if they were in you would be looking at their heads, the way this movement is assembled.

Thank you charette. I was waiting for you to clarify this before i commented on that. The jewel securing screws can come from either side depending on the design. You are lucky the reverse of this can be risky for a beginner to remove.  Can we see the underside of the jewel shown, and also the cap jewel please. 

[Charette]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thank you charette. I was waiting for you to clarify this before i commented on that. The jewel securing screws can come from either side depending on the design. You are lucky the reverse of this can be risky for a beginner to remove.  Can we see the underside of the jewel shown, and also the cap jewel please. 

Here is what I was able to get so far. Just missing is the underside of the top cap jewel. Will have to wait until my kids next nap time. 
Combination of trying to take photos through loupe as well with digital zoom on phone.

[Neverenoughwatches]

12 minutes ago, Charette said:

Here is what I was able to get so far. Just missing is the underside of the top cap jewel. Will have to wait until my kids next nap time. 
Combination of trying to take photos through loupe as well with digital zoom on phone.

Thank you charette. Pictures 7 8  10 and 12  are the important ones. All except 12  are  a little fuzzy though. Something does look off with the top jewel on picture 10 as thought it is set too high. Difficult to see the pivot condition on 7 and 8 but also i think possibly.  Worn. Try macro setting on your phone to see if the picture improves.

1 minute ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thank you charette. Pictures 7 8  10 and 12  are the important ones. All except 12  are  a little fuzzy though. Something does look off with the top jewel on picture 10 as thought it is set too high. Difficult to see the pivot condition on 7 and 8 but also i think possibly.  Worn. Try macro setting on your phone to see if the picture improves.

Oh. And bless them, i miss my kids being little. Is your wife out for the day ? Good for her, weekend is dads time with the kids. 

[Charette]

43 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thank you charette. Pictures 7 8  10 and 12  are the important ones. All except 12  are  a little fuzzy though. Something does look off with the top jewel on picture 10 as thought it is set too high. Difficult to see the pivot condition on 7 and 8 but also i think possibly.  Worn. Try macro setting on your phone to see if the picture improves.

Oh. And bless them, i miss my kids being little. Is your wife out for the day ? Good for her, weekend is dads time with the kids. 

Thanks, I will have to try again on the photos. My phone does not have a macro mode unfortunately. Will eventually look at one of those digital microscopes.

If the jewel is set too high, the only option is a jeweling tool to push it down slightly, is that correct? For the balance, if worn replacement is the only option? Both may be outside my abilities/tooling at the moment if so. The watch is serving its purpose as a learning tool, I can still reassemble, but it would be nice to have it running at the end. I only paid $15 Cdn for it as a non-runner as well.

I have found a watch maker local to me, I was hoping if I reached out to him he may have some time to share, worst he can say is no right.

Apologies if delayed responses as I can sneak my hobbies in most often after kids have gone to bed in the evening.

[JohnR725]

15 minutes ago, Charette said:

If the jewel is set too high, the only option is a jeweling tool to push it down slightly, is that correct?

have we determined yet why the jewel moved all by itself over time and now needs to push down? Have you confirmed that the reason your balances wobbling.

13 hours ago, Charette said:

The wobble is the whole balance, like there is too much space between the top and bottom jewels. I will report back what I can see.

do you know how to test for end shake? In other words the balance is in the watch the bridges on the ends stones definitely have to be on can you wiggle the balance up and down when the screw is tight on the bridge? You might have to get another watch to try out the sea which are doing. The needs to be a little bit a play because of its to type the balance doesn't turn but it can't be way too much.

 

[Nucejoe]

 There is a good chance of the jewels being the right ones when lower and upper jewels look the same.

If the jewel is set too high pushing it down is your best option, but thats not the only option, there is a chance to adjust them by shimming the cock. If you don't have a jeweling tool try pushing the jewel with a wooden stick, make sure the jewel doesn't mind budging and not decide to break.

The incab shock system lets you flip the end stone over so its domed side faces the pivot.   

Such tricks lets you get the watch running without special tools, None are standard repair approaches. 

Regs

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Charette said:

Thanks, I will have to try again on the photos. My phone does not have a macro mode unfortunately. Will eventually look at one of those digital microscopes.

If the jewel is set too high, the only option is a jeweling tool to push it down slightly, is that correct? For the balance, if worn replacement is the only option? Both may be outside my abilities/tooling at the moment if so. The watch is serving its purpose as a learning tool, I can still reassemble, but it would be nice to have it running at the end. I only paid $15 Cdn for it as a non-runner as well.

I have found a watch maker local to me, I was hoping if I reached out to him he may have some time to share, worst he can say is no right.

Apologies if delayed responses as I can sneak my hobbies in most often after kids have gone to bed in the evening.

You need a jewelling tool to alter jewel heights yes. Personally i think a worn bottom pivot or possibly a low bottom jewel but that is less likely.  This has the effect of the top pivot coming away from its top jewel hole allowing the full balance to wobble around. 2 options.  One repivoting the balance staff this is outside a beginner's skill and maybe even a good amateur (i have yet to attempt this ). And the other a balance staff replacement again really beyond a beginner and requires a staking tool and set, quite an expensive tool for a beginner. Old time watchmakers generally love to pass their knowledge on to someone before they retire. Its their way of keeping decades of their own learning alive. I hope this is the case, that would be a wonderful gift for you. 

1 hour ago, Nucejoe said:

The incab shock system lets you flip the end stone over so its domed side faces the pivot.   

Such tricks lets you get the watch running without special tools, None are standard repair approaches. 

Regs

Lol. Thats the one i was taking about Joe, naughty but effective   

[Nucejoe]

50 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

 Thats the one i was taking about Joe, naughty but effective   

A little trick that lets the joy of seeing a first repair running happy is worth showing to beginners.  Don't you agree? 

Bigginers usually  don't care about loosing a bit of amplitude. 

Rgds

[Charette]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

have we determined yet why the jewel moved all by itself over time and now needs to push down? Have you confirmed that the reason your balances wobbling.

do you know how to test for end shake? In other words the balance is in the watch the bridges on the ends stones definitely have to be on can you wiggle the balance up and down when the screw is tight on the bridge? You might have to get another watch to try out the sea which are doing. The needs to be a little bit a play because of its to type the balance doesn't turn but it can't be way too much.

 

When the balance is installed only one pivot can be in at a time, depending on the orientation of the main plate (right-side up or upside down). When the pivots are in they are secure in their holes. Only being in one hole results in the significant amount of play side to side at one end. There is not enough space for the whole balance to fall out, but it is very sloppy for sure. I wish there was a way to post a video here, I think it is pictures only?

I think I will try to see if I can jury-rig something to see if I can press the top pivot in slightly to close up the vertical space. This watch is all about learning after all!

[Neverenoughwatches]

13 minutes ago, Charette said:

When the balance is installed only one pivot can be in at a time, depending on the orientation of the main plate (right-side up or upside down). When the pivots are in they are secure in their holes. Only being in one hole results in the significant amount of play side to side at one end. There is not enough space for the whole balance to fall out, but it is very sloppy for sure. I wish there was a way to post a video here, I think it is pictures only?

I think I will try to see if I can jury-rig something to see if I can press the top pivot in slightly to close up the vertical space. This watch is all about learning after all!

So you either have moved jewels a worn pivot possibly both or the wrong balance staff entirely has been put in at some point in its life. You can try Nucejoe's tip of packing up the outside edge of the balance cock to tip it down at the pivot, if you just want to see it run wobble free. There is an alternative method somewhat quicker and less faffy. Gouging ( raising a point of mainplate material ) the outside edge under the balance cock, this will have the same effect. Definitely not something to be done on an honest repair IMO and will always be there to be seen as opposed to a shim that can be removed.  But if the top pivot is badly worn you may still struggle.  Have a good look at both pivots with a 20x loupe if you have one. Then you will know for sure. 

[grsnovi]

5 hours ago, Charette said:

I wish there was a way to post a video here

Post it to YouTube and then post the link.

[Charette]

Alright, here we go, here is a link to a short video on what I am seeing. At the is the clearest show of the movement.

 

I did email the local watchmaker today, but looking up him I see he is quite 'big time' in terms of his accomplishments and the work that he does, so we'll see if he has any time to reply.

[Nucejoe]

Pivot doesn't stay in jewel hole, if not broken or badly worn out, shimming the cock should work.    

 Jewels in this type of setting can't be moved much and  is unlikely to suffice here.

Regds

[JohnR725]

and all your pictures I did not see looking sideways? In other words looking in so we can see the main plate lead see if the balance bridge is parallel to the main plate we could see the balance wheel?

15 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Jewels in this type of setting can't be moved much and  is unlikely to suffice here.

yes but it would be fun to see somebody try and not solve the problem. Oh and if they were moving the hole jewel what about the end shake? The end shake is still controlled by the end stones and they're not going anywhere in a watch like this. There's something else going on.