ESA 9158 NOS case for balance complete

[luiazazrambo]

Hi Black- / Locksmiths and Clock- / Watchmakers,

Is anyone interested swapping an ESA 9158 complete balance for a NOS ESA 9158 case? I fell in love with the ESA 9158 now and want to make two of them work, unfortunately I got 6 balance completes but all of them have a broken pivot. I also got a number of NOS stainless steel ESA 9158 cases, have a look at the pics.

Take care,

Lui

 

[JohnR725]

13 hours ago, luiazazrambo said:

ESA 9158

you forgot to include the picture of the movement? I suspect a lot of people probably don't understand what kind of watch this is so I have a link just in case and it has a picture the movement.  in other words this isn't your normal mechanical watch.

 

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&ETA-ESA_9158

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

13 hours ago, luiazazrambo said:

unfortunately I got 6 balance completes but all of them have a broken pivot.

Hi. Is this a common issue of the esa 9158 ?

[luiazazrambo]

9 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hi. Is this a common issue of the esa 9158 ?

I assume it is as common with the ESA 9158 as any other watch with a balance staff. I was just very unfortunate, i bought this lot together as used movements and all of them had a broken pivot. Interesting thing is that thew swung nicely not showing the sign that they are broken, they even run when they rest on the pivot which is not broken. I let one of them run for more than a day long.

9 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

you forgot to include the picture of the movement? I suspect a lot of people probably don't understand what kind of watch this is so I have a link just in case and it has a picture the movement.  in other words this isn't your normal mechanical watch.

 

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&ETA-ESA_9158

 

Thank you John, i was in a rush, family, work and garden keeps me busy recently. I studied electric engineering and I love that discrete electronic components are merged with a mechanical watch movement. Very exciting! 

Here is a blog about one: https://blog.noq2.net/wittnauer-electronic-repaired.html

Edited May 4, 2022 by luiazazrambo

[JohnR725]

what is interesting with broken pivots on a balance staff are when you look at the picture that appears to be a system to prevent pivots from breaking? On the other hand it's a heavy balance wheel running at a really fast rate so maybe the system didn't work?

then I found it a parts list and unfortunate problem with some of the parts list star that this is probably the entire repair manual but because a material house had it all they cared about were the parts so conceivably there is a manual out there for servicing of this otherwise you get one of the similar in the series manuals and that would be good enough for you probably

then I have a website that will give you a history of your watch and show you a few others and then you can go explore the rest of the website filled with electric watches

https://electric-watches.co.uk/movement-types/transistorised/

 

 

3560_ETA 9157, 9158.pdf

[luiazazrambo]

I tried to find an answer why did we think that these balances are still ok and the pivots are not broken. Well have a look at the video I uploaded to youtube. Here you can see the upper part of the balance staff after the jewels are removed. I made the video after I removed the battery and the balance wheel was slowing down otherwise it is too fast to see whats going on. So you can see that the upper pivot is broken, the balance is resting on the lower pivot which is intact. The interesting thing is that the upper part of the balance staff is in a hole and the hole does not let the balance staff tilt too much, preventing excessive side shake. My theory is that this is planned and this is how they tried to prevent the balance wheel plates rub on the coil if one of the pivot is broken so the coil would not be damaged by them. As you can see the hole diameter is a lot larger than the balance staff diameter, the balance wheel happily runs this way, but makes some noise as it is rattling in its whole while swinging. If I turn the movement upside down it stops of course. If the lower pivot would be broken too the balance wheel would sink further down and I assume it would not run at all neither DU or DD. Conclusion: if only one of the pivot is broken it is very difficult to see if if it is really broken without taking the balance complete out because the balance wheel swing nicely and has no excessive side shake. (This is my theory at least.)

ESA9158 still swinging

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 minutes ago, luiazazrambo said:

I tried to find an answer why did we think that these balances are still ok and the pivots are not broken. Well have a look at the video I uploaded to youtube. Here you can see the upper part of the balance staff after the jewels are removed. I made the video after I removed the battery and the balance wheel was slowing down otherwise it is too fast to see whats going on. So you can see that the upper pivot is broken, the balance is resting on the lower pivot which is intact. The interesting thing is that the upper part of the balance staff is in a hole and the hole does not let the balance staff tilt too much, preventing excessive side shake. My theory is that this is planned and this is how they tried to prevent the balance wheel plates rub on the coil if one of the pivot is broken so the coil would not be damaged by them. As you can see the hole diameter is a lot larger than the balance staff diameter, the balance wheel happily runs this way, but makes some noise as it is rattling in its whole while swinging. If I turn the movement upside down it stops of course. If the lower pivot would be broken too the balance wheel would sink further down and I assume it would not run at all neither DU or DD. Conclusion: if only one of the pivot is broken it is very difficult to see if if it is really broken without taking the balance complete out because the balance wheel swing nicely and has no excessive side shake. (This is my theory at least.)

ESA9158 still swinging

Dont you want to take the balance out and have a good inspection of it? 

[JohnR725]

22 minutes ago, luiazazrambo said:

So you can see that the upper pivot is broken, the balance is resting on the lower pivot which is intact.

Actually what I'm seeing is confusion? Looking at the video again reading your text what I'm seeing is lots and lots of confusion all yours and a little mine?

It looks to me like your pivot is intact I can see your pivot. Why is it flopping around well that's easy where's the jewel?

To give you a clue of what I'm thinking I'm attaching a picture of a different balance protection system. If you are to remove the end stone and the hole jewel in its setting then when you look at side view of the picture you'll see that your balance pivot is sticking up flopping around in a hole exactly what I'm seeing in your video.

Now it is possible because your video socks as we really need a side view. It's possible maybe the pivot really isn't there but it looks like it's their. The only way can really tell about your balance is you have to take the balance out and look at the side view of the pivot and see if it's intact or not. It's possible because this is a different system am that somehow the pivot did break which is really unlikely as it has a system to prevent the. That's why when it's flopping around his flopping around on the edge of the staff which is designed to keep the pivot from breaking and the jewel setting is supposed to move on impact the same as the setting in the picture moves on impact. It might also be possible somebody didn't lubricate correctly that the pivot just ground itself off with time. But it still looks like a pivot sticking up to me we really need a side view

[luiazazrambo]

Hi John, I took out all 6 balances and they all have a broken pivot. That particular one on the video has a broken upper pivot, possibly not so visible as the video was made from above. The balance is rattling with or without the jewels because of the missing pivot I only removed the jewels so we could see the end of the staff and the hole.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Actually what I'm seeing is confusion? Looking at the video again reading your text what I'm seeing is lots and lots of confusion all yours and a little mine?

It looks to me like your pivot is intact I can see your pivot. Why is it flopping around well that's easy where's the jewel?

To give you a clue of what I'm thinking I'm attaching a picture of a different balance protection system. If you are to remove the end stone and the hole jewel in its setting then when you look at side view of the picture you'll see that your balance pivot is sticking up flopping around in a hole exactly what I'm seeing in your video.

Now it is possible because your video socks as we really need a side view. It's possible maybe the pivot really isn't there but it looks like it's their. The only way can really tell about your balance is you have to take the balance out and look at the side view of the pivot and see if it's intact or not. It's possible because this is a different system am that somehow the pivot did break which is really unlikely as it has a system to prevent the. That's why when it's flopping around his flopping around on the edge of the staff which is designed to keep the pivot from breaking and the jewel setting is supposed to move on impact the same as the setting in the picture moves on impact. It might also be possible somebody didn't lubricate correctly that the pivot just ground itself off with time. But it still looks like a pivot sticking up to me we really need a side view

I was in the same confusion as John. Taking the balance out to inspect would have taken away any guesswork.

1 hour ago, luiazazrambo said:

Hi John, I took out all 6 balances and they all have a broken pivot. That particular one on the video has a broken upper pivot, possibly not so visible as the video was made from above. The balance is rattling with or without the jewels because of the missing pivot I only removed the jewels so we could see the end of the staff and the hole.

I think we understand now. So what is your position now. To carry on looking for an intact balance staff or to repivot or make a staff ?

[luiazazrambo]

Reading of my own post made me think that I probably was not very clear about the situation. Let me try again: I bought 6 ESA 9158 movements in belief that all had a working balance with intact pivots. When they arrived they all seemed to be ok as the balance was swinging freely and could not identify excessive side shake so I cleaned the first good looking and complete movement, cleaned the balance and during re-assembly I realized that one of the pivot of the balance staff was broken. Not to worry I had other 5 so I took the next balance but one of the pivot was broken I took the next one but one of the pivot was broken and so on with all 5! Incredible! So the question I tried to answer with the video I made was: How is it possible that we could not identify the broken pivot just by swinging the balance wheel and checking the side shake. I thought that if the pivot is broken there is always an excessive side shake. I also must say that I usually do not touch a movement which is not at least 50 years old or so.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, luiazazrambo said:

Reading of my own post made me think that I probably was not very clear about the situation. Let me try again: I bought 6 ESA 9158 movements in belief that all had a working balance with intact pivots. When they arrived they all seemed to be ok as the balance was swinging freely and could not identify excessive side shake so I cleaned the first good looking and complete movement, cleaned the balance and during re-assembly I realized that one of the pivot of the balance staff was broken. Not to worry I had other 5 so I took the next balance but one of the pivot was broken I took the next one but one of the pivot was broken and so on with all 5! Incredible! So the question I tried to answer with the video I made was: How is it possible that we could not identify the broken pivot just by swinging the balance wheel and checking the side shake. I thought that if the pivot is broken there is always an excessive side shake. I also must say that I usually do not touch a movement which is not at least 50 years old or so.

I did eventually figure that out matey after rereading a couple of times and also reading between the lines. Aw mate bless you that's some crappy luck you had there. But obviously just enough of the balance pivot left riding in the jewel setting. Maybe just the cone and a fraction of the pivot keeping it in place. I did exactly the same with a beautiful  50s Venus I bought of ebay. The guy posted a video of the balance oscillating, it did look a little rough running and a tad noisy tbh, but I wanted it all the same. Yes it has a teeny weeny pivot left. I plan to give the balance staff a big oak to ride on. I'm not saying nothing apart from might be best if I don't post much today lol

Edited May 6, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches
Sounded wrong, personally I don't think I particularly improved the sentence that much 🤷‍♂️

[luiazazrambo]

I have ordered a few balance completes, and they came with two different impulse jewel. To my astonishment they both work. I assume this is because of this funny escape wheel what we have here. Going to take a pic later about it, it is really handsome trust me.

[luiazazrambo]

Here is our "escape" wheel. If you think about it the direction of the power is the opposite compared to a "normal" mechanical watch. The balance wheel is driving the train, and using the "escape" wheel only for the means of the power transmission? Not sure if I use the right terminology or function names here.

Edited May 23, 2022 by luiazazrambo

[Neverenoughwatches]

11 hours ago, luiazazrambo said:

I have ordered a few balance completes, and they came with two different impulse jewel. To my astonishment they both work. I assume this is because of this funny escape wheel what we have here. Going to take a pic later about it, it is really handsome trust me.

Wow very different.  And both fit the pallet fork ?

43 minutes ago, luiazazrambo said:

Here is our "escape" wheel. If you think about it the direction of the power is the opposite compared to a "normal" mechanical watch. The balance wheel is driving the train, and using the "escape" wheel only for the means of the power transmission? Not sure if I use the right terminology or function names here.

No pallet ?

3 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The balance wheel is driving the train, and using the "escape" wheel only for the means of the power transmission? 

No mainspring or barrel ?

[JohnR725]

7 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

No pallet ?

 

7 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

No mainspring or barrel ?

A lot of electric watches were like this no pallet fork and its electric no mainspring.

The watches like this have a very clever design. The escape wheel is held in place with a tiny magnet. In one direction the balance wheel will pick up one tooth of the escape wheel. The other direction it goes by either not touching at all are barely touching. Or basically escape wheel moves a little out of the way it goes back in the place.

An awards a very clever design that requires very little power to run

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

The escape wheel is held in place with a tiny magnet. In one direction the balance wheel will pick up one tooth of the escape wheel. The other direction it goes by either not touching at all are barely touching. Or basically escape wheel moves a little out of the way it goes back in the place.

Is this magnet making the escape wheel act like a rotor in a quartz watch ?

[luiazazrambo]

New strap, new case, new battery, serviced. Only issue is that there is no movement ring I have to find or make one.

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Is this magnet making the escape wheel act like a rotor in a quartz watch ?

No. Technically there is more than one magnet in this watch as the coil is stationary there's a magnet on the balance wheel.  The coil serves two purposes the magnet causes the coil to engage the triggering coil that turns on the transistor that drives the rest of the coil which causes the impulse for the balance wheel. Then there's a tiny magnet under one of the teeth of the escape wheel that keeps it in place. So that magnet is only they are just as a keeping the escape wheel where it's supposed to be.