Elgin Grade 145 clean up

[Nibbler]

Here is an Elgin 1899 grade 145 pocket watch I have disassembled, cleaned, oiled and regulated.

I replaced the crystal and also the winding stem sleeve. The Crown could be replaced with one a bit more silvered but I sort of like it brassy.

[Watchoutnow]

Hi, I have one of these coming. How do you know it's a grade 145? Mind is movement number 8994776 which is the end of year 1899. I haven't worked on American PW before, only Swiss. Is there anything tricky about it such as LH threaded screws? Any insight would be appreciated...J.

[grsnovi]

1 hour ago, Watchoutnow said:

How do you know it's a grade 145? Mind is movement number 8994776

According to the POCKET WATCH DATABASE yours isn't. Your s/n says that it's a grade 207 model 4. I was unable to find that specific model in the ILLUSTRATED MANUAL of AMERICAN WATCH MOVEMENTS. Part numbers are listed in the red ELGIN Genuine Material manual.

[Watchoutnow]

Thanks! I had already found this information though nwcca webpage. Nice info to have... I also ordered an uncased Grade 207 to practice on first and use as a donor...looks like fun...J.

[grsnovi]

Be careful - just because you have the same Grade 207 don't assume that you can just swap parts. I made that mistake with an old Elgin I was working on..

[JohnR725]

11 hours ago, Watchoutnow said:

8994776

 

11 hours ago, Watchoutnow said:

How do you know it's a grade 145? Mind is movement number 8994776 which is the end of year 1899. I haven't worked on American PW before, only Swiss. Is there anything tricky about it such as LH threaded screws? Any insight would be appreciated...J.

then your question as interesting Swiss versus American but that isn't your question not really. Are we talking a vintage Swiss or modern Swiss versus vintage American because that's an entirely different question?

 

10 hours ago, grsnovi said:

I was unable to find that specific model in the ILLUSTRATED MANUAL of AMERICAN WATCH MOVEMENTS

the reason you are unable to find it is their way too many grades and models to be listed. There only listing the really really popular stuff everything else you'll have to go to other sources.

Like for instance the link below Elgin pocket watch parts. Enter in your grade number you get a parts list and you can enter your part number in on another search and I give you all the various grades that use the same part. See mass production standard parts except this is a vintage watch go to the notes on the bottom of the page.

Notice variations that means that even if you had to watches that look identical are about the same grade the parts may or may not interchange. notice is a reference to the balance staffs well this is because this is my favorite staff number 857. Why is it my favorite staff number because you feel the right listings first to find a typical almost but not all American pocket watches will have different pivots sizes for the same staff. Then like this particular staff comes in four separate variations. And what I mean by variation there will be definite dimensional differences were you cannot interchange but they all have the same part number. That of these variations they also have the pivots size variation. The list that I'm looking at indicates for the 857 staff we would have 14 different staffs that are all different for some reason with the exact same part number.

http://www.elginwatchparts.com/

oh and then there's the other little problem which does not entirely plagued American watches it basically plagues everything made early on even if they were mass-produced

 

then I have a link to a video. It's an interesting video showing making Elgin watches with the problem if you look at your pocket watch you will find that all of the plates have a serial number referring those parts to this one specific watch even the balance wheel should have its serial number scribed on it. Because even though the parts were mass-produced the watch was still hand fit. So all certain parts will readily interchange other parts will not probably or possibly typically escapement components will be problematic. Express if you pay attention of the notes on the bottom of the part page where it said there were variations

then you look at the video there making the parts but notice when their hand fitting some of the stuff they might be hand adjusting the parts the earlier the watch the more likely there was hand adjusting to get things to fit as they go more and more modern their tolerances get smaller and smaller the perfection of making parts at some point in time even Elgin drop serial numbers because they aren't needed anymore for individual components. But back when these watches are made the parts are made in a batch and between batches there can be or possibly will be variations

https://youtu.be/ys4ChOWYNy8

oh and remember to take pictures especially of the keyless works. According to the specs up above you have a lever set that will make things a little easier.

Oh and? Maybe I should just leave you some mysteries or by the way did you notice is the full plate watch? Notice where the balance wheel is when it comes time to reassemble it all give you some clues the problem is or what you'll run into is on a full plate watch getting the pallet fork where it's supposed to be can be an interesting challenge if it's done incorrectly damage can occur. But I think I'll let you have some fun with your watch, pocket watches can be interesting to work on.

 

 

[Watchoutnow]

Thanks for the insight...I already found a video of someone servicing a Grade 207 and it is more complicated then I could have imagined. I've only worked on fairly modern (post 1950) Swiss movements (WW and PW) which seem designed for mass production and fairly easy servicing.  I also have a Hamilton Railway Special 992B that functions fine but probably would benefit from some Mobius syn lube. I'm warming up to that one.

I also have a movement only Grade 207 coming to "warm up" on. Both Elgin's are supposed to be runners. The cased watch was a family heirloom and I don't supposed it's been "cycled through" ebay yet by a bunch of bunglers. The seller didn't know about the lever set feature and just assumed the watch was broken. At least none of these are really breaking the bank and just make fun projects to tinker with. I'm glad my existence doesn't depend on my ability to fix watches!

[grsnovi]

2 hours ago, Watchoutnow said:

I'm glad my existence doesn't depend on my ability to fix watches!

Me too! I've dabbled with this for the last year and while I have learned a lot I have never actually gotten an EBAY non-runner going. I do have a very pretty Omega that after removing the dial and hands does indeed run after a wind. I haven't yet done anything to it so that it ends up like everything else I've touched.

JohnR725 is a fount of information here - he'll bend over backwards to help.

Keep at it. While "conventional wisdom" suggests that a pocket watch is the best place to start since they are somewhat larger actual wisdom further suggests that your first project watch should already be running.

[Watchoutnow]

I agree with your assessment of pocket watches not being for beginners. I would agree that a pocket watch movement is a good place for one to start, like the ones that are also put into wristwatches. I sort of started this journey backwards and went from repairing a vintage ww that I had laying round that had an ETA 1080 movement in it (I don't recommend that for a starter) , then I moved up to autowinding date only ETA 2824-2 ( a great watch to work on but maybe not for a beginner).  After working on about 50 watches (all now running) I decided to buy a China clone 6897 (ST36) just to practice on and assess how well made it was. Then I accidentally bought a Swiss UT 6325 pocket watch because I mistook it for a Swiss UT 6497 and discovered the pleasures of a Wermachtwerkes type movement and that's were I would tell someone to start, especially the 6325.

I found that working on low quality and clone movements could easily frustrate a beginner because they may not necessarily go back together well. Cheap things are made to be disposed, not repaired. I have had the incabloc spring jump out of the jewel block on every China clone movement I touched, but have never had this happen on a Swiss made movement. 

I just started picking up on pocket watches because I've had a few people ask me if I repaired them also so I broadened my horizon. And I like them, they are cool. So far I picked up two non runners and brought them back from the dead, a process I truly enjoy. A real testament to the Swiss watch industry that one can take a completely neglected 50yo watch and just meticulous clean it and re lubricate it and it will tell time +/- 5 SD...J.

[grsnovi]

2 hours ago, Watchoutnow said:

I decided to buy a China clone 6897 (ST36)

Me too, but when I "cleaned" the un-used/new movement, I ended up dissolving the glue that they used to hold the balance spring in place and decided that rather than fool with that, I'd just buy another (which I still haven't touched).

My original intent was to become proficient enough to clean/lube my Zenith HW so I wouldn't have to send it off to LVMH to be cleaned/lubed. I had just sent my IWC Spitfire off and it cost me $600. I figured I could do-it-myself for less.

Wrong (at least in my case).

I've spent WAY more than what it would have cost me to send it off - heck, I could have picked up another Swiss watch for what I've invested in my watchmaking skills. I have however learned quite a lot and have enjoyed taking macro photos of watch stuff.

- Gary

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, Watchoutnow said:

I already found a video of someone servicing a Grade 207

oh and you want to be careful with videos. On another discussion group someone was servicing a Hamilton I believe and is upset because of? There are actually several things he was upset about I think it's because he had a double roller or a single roller in the watch and the video was the other one so he wanted to know if you should convert his watch back to the way it's supposed to be. Then later on he was upset about another aspect in each time I pointed out according to the parts book various serial numbers like Elgin will sometimes indicate before maybe it's single roller after it's a double roller. So even though I would point out the individual that his watch is a different serial number than the one in the video he embraced the video was blessed by God's and his must be the same way. So that means of course that could be some variations between your watch and the watch in the video perhaps.

You also grasp why when you look at the video I brought up photographing the keyless works because the keyless works on American pocket watches will all vary between the various manufacturers and because they're trying to get around patents of the day they're all going to be different. Not only are there be different but conceivably differences between various watch grades as things of updated and improved since always good to get a picture when you're taking it apart just because. Then even though vintage pocket watches are my day job I will still take pictures sometimes the keyless because well it's just a nice thing to do.

2 hours ago, Watchoutnow said:

I found that working on low quality and clone movements

usually the Chinese 6497 clones tend to be pretty good. But yes other clones which are clones more of maybe much more generic clone and other words it's a watch it has gears but it doesn't exactly resemble the original then yes you definitely do have some issues. Especially if they start getting really creative on how they're doing things

one of things that you may find if you're lucky with pocket watches is if they're old enough and they used organic oils oils get sticky the watch stops the watch goes into a drawer where it's been sitting for the last 5000 years then cleaning possibly a new mainspring is all it's going to need. Versus it's been worked on where the movable banking pins got moved and maybe parts got swapped and other things have happened

I was helping a friend out with a full plate Hamilton and I have is try remember the bizarre things that occurred the friend decided that that would be as last watch to repair he decided he'd reached the point of his age where he was tired of working on watches and he was yes way past retirement but he was doing it kind of the help somebody out or something. But in order to fix this watch we had to purchase a replacement watch from somebody because his watch the balance bridge has been swapped for something else and he didn't notice I was trying to figure out why the balance wheel wasn't quite in alignment. Plus by being a full plate he had not the pallet fork jewels out of place and there was something else he did. So yes if they stop because the oil gums up and they just need to be cleaned that's great but if they been running and people of played with them then it becomes more and more challenging to get vintage pocket watches to work. But is not just vintage pocket watches basically any watch that has had a service history conceivably can end up with a bad service history doesn't really matter whether it's a pocket watch a wristwatch or even Rolex watches. A considerable puzzlement at work is why the Rolex watches are hopelessly off on timekeeping because people were playing with the timing with its seemingly with no clue of what the heck they were doing.

[Watchoutnow]

Thanks again John...not having a place for any formal education in watchmaking available to me I consider blundering around with watches as "paying tuition". I doubt too many places actually teach how to repair watches from 1900 anyway. Yes videos can be deceptive but for the most part they give a general idea of how to proceed, especially which of the darn winding wheels has a lh vs a rh screw. The rest if it might demand a little "watch sense"  which is why I delayed working on them until I had some extensive experience with the basics...J.

[grsnovi]

26 minutes ago, Watchoutnow said:

not having a place for any formal education in watchmaking

Don't discount Mark's online tutorials although depending on how accomplished you feel with your ability you might skip 1 and 2 and go directly to 3 on fault finding.

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, grsnovi said:

go directly to 3 on fault finding.

thinking of faultfinding how about a good book. The reality is to learn you need a multiple sources of information because typically one source may or may not do it for you.

for instance here's an interesting book you can look at it online and then you can download it in a variety of your favorite formats. Even though it's from 45 to certain degree very little has changed is all sorts of interesting sections including I believe there is at least one troubleshooting section. There's also a couple of pocket watches not full plates like you have but there are a couple of pocket watches amongst all the other stuff

https://archive.org/details/TM9-1575

 

[LittleWatchShop]

6 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

https://archive.org/details/TM9-1575

Already had this archived, but decided to scan through it again.  Great document.  This caught my eye

The old Elgin 56-A

[Watchoutnow]

Thanks again John! The book has a full step by step on maintaining a Hamilton 992B, mine's from 1948 so it is right in period. I'll have to give it a full read before I do mine...J.

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, LittleWatchShop said:

This caught my eye

the old books and tech sheets are always interesting for the lubrication choices. I've attached an image the other version of Elgin is so much better. Basically from what I can tell of the person made up the charge is that both Hamilton Elgin made the best oil in the world and would still beat out the Swiss or else today but of course they're not Swiss oils we can't be using American oils and Swiss watches although Swatch group did buyout Hamilton it seems like they would adopt their oil but maybe not.