Trench Watch Help

[rattandsonwatchmakers]

I am in the process of repairing this watch movement...the problem...I can not identify it...I need to source parts or a donor for this 13L movement....any information would be most welcome...thanks...

[Geo]

What are the symptoms Jerry, is it the missing parts?

Edited February 9, 2015 by Geo

[rattandsonwatchmakers]

thanks....the center pinion on which the minute hand rides in frozen inside the center wheel....all parts are there.....

[rattandsonwatchmakers]

I'm sorry..i should l have said...I have all the parts...the missing ones in the photo are  in currently in my parts dish

[bobm12]

Hi clockboy, try a Landeron cal 47 for starters. Just a suggestion.

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

[Geo]

To clarify, could you post a picture of the actual part that is giving the problem? It sounds like it is the cannon pinion that is rusted to the arbour it slides over.

Bob, a Landeron 47 is a chronograph movement. ;)

Edited February 9, 2015 by Geo

[bobm12]

Thanks Geo, I'm not sure about the number, that's why I ventured a 47 which seemed about right at the time, now I know better. :) It has the looks of a Landeron though, maybe it could be located through ranftt ? Just a thought.

[clockboy]

The movement is a Godat trench watch I think !!!!

[bobm12]

That's on the plate clockboy, and I'm glad you confirmed it since I couldn't read it well. In fact, because of it, I searched instead by the brand on the dial (not optimal), and came up with Landeron. Maybe it is a similar ebauche? Very intrigued myself too.

 

I'll follow the thread with interest and see what come up. If I find some reliable information then I'll report back.

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

[rattandsonwatchmakers]

the pin at number 01 slides out in the direction of the number 02...the cannon pinion is friction fit on the pin...the minute hand rides on the pin..not the cannon pinion

[Geo]

This is all a bit confusing Jerry, the pin should be solid inside the wheel and the cannon pinion a friction fit over it. The cannon pinion should carry the minute hand. The hour hand should be on the hour wheel and driven by the minute wheel via the cannon wheel.

Edited by Geo 2/3/15

The above information is incorrect for an antique trench watch. See post dated 2/3/15 for correct information.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Geo

[clockboy]

Looks like the pin is bent & canon pinion is damaged which is not very good. As Geo says the pin should be attached to the wheel.

Edited February 9, 2015 by clockboy

[rattandsonwatchmakers]

my original thought too....henry fried has a section in his book that deals with this arrangement....very odd...

[seemore]

Probably a Langendorf movement as Lancet was one of their names along with Lanco. I think you might struggle to find another so you may have to try some type of repair to what you have.

[bobm12]

Sorry about the mix up. I confused the avatars (should have read) and meant Jerry but nice to have your input too clockboy! I'm learning here from what you, experienced friends, are sharing.

Cheers,

Bob

[Geo]

the minute hand rides on the pin..not the cannon pinion

If this is the case, the hour and minute hand will go out of register when you adjust the time with the crown. Only the hour hand will move!

[clockboy]

It,s a case of repair with what you have as parts will not be available. 

[rattandsonwatchmakers]

if you have access to henry frieds  book "bench practices for watch and clockmakers" look at page 236...he has a diagram relative to this arrangement

[Geo]

if you have access to henry frieds  book "bench practices for watch and clockmakers" look at page 236...he has a diagram relative to this arrangement

I wish I did Jerry, I'd like to see it! :)

[Geo]

the pin at number 01 slides out in the direction of the number 02...the cannon pinion is friction fit on the pin...the minute hand rides on the pin..not the cannon pinion

If this is the case, the hour and minute hand will go out of register when you adjust the time with the crown. Only the hour hand will move!

My statement above regarding the operation is correct regarding modern watches, but as it turned out it is flawed when referring to old pocket and Trench style watches. For this I must apologise.

Having just completed work on a 1913 trench watch, I now know how the cannon pinion system works on these old watches.

The pin No.1 in the picture is a friction fit inside the centre wheel No.2 in the same way that a modern cannon pinion is a friction fit over the centre wheel shaft of a modern watch. If need be, this fit can be increased by gently peening the part of pin No.1 where it locates inside the centre wheel No.2. This could be done until the required degree of resistance is attained for setting the hands.

The cannon pinion in the trench watch has a slight taper inside, and pin No.1 has a matching taper on the part that is exposed above the main plate. The cannon pinion when fitted correctly is a tight fit on the shaft, just like a morse taper, and does not rotate on the shaft. The hour wheel is fitted over the cannon pinion and is driven by the cannon pinion via the minute wheel. The minute hand is fitted tightly onto the pin No.1 holing it all together. There is no dial washer!

The hour hand is fitted in the normal way, but I recommend using a staking set to fit the minute hand accurately. Select a position on the die plate between holes, or use a flat faced stump to support the lower end of pin No.1. A flat hole punch should be selected for driving on the minute hand. This should be done very gently using a watchmakers hammer until it is fully seated. The end of the pin should just be showing through the centre of the minute wheel when correctly seated. Check to make sure that the hands are setting correctly and all feels good before casing the watch.

[clockboy]

Good research Geo.  Interesting set up that I have never came across. 

[Geo]

Good research Geo.  Interesting set up that I have never came across.

Not research CB, that was what I found when I stripped and reassembled the watch.

[clockboy]

Oh apologies, nice result anyway Geo