Full plate watch, Suitable tool for adjusting & testing pallet stones?

[mbwatch]

I find myself in a frustrating situation, and if I have learned anything yet it's that there might be a specific old tool to get me out of it.

I am rebuilding an early grade Elgin 18 size full plate movement, just restaffed and installed a new roller jewel. Next I found that the pallet stones were loose and added shellac to them, reassembled but the watch does not run. Observing the escapement through the holes, it is clear the entry stone needs to move in slightly. So I know what I need to do at this stage, but I fully expect to need a few adjustments of one or both stones. I don't want to move the banking pins because it did want to tick before I noticed the pallets were not secure.

Question is, on a full plate movement this is incredibly inconvenient to make a change, let the shellac harden, and reassemble the entire full plate watch in order to observe the escapement action.  It can only be seen from the dial side through the small holes in the pillar plate, so even the balance must be installed in order to manually operate it from the back. Anyone know how this was done 120 years ago? Is there a tool or fixture that can be used for the job outside the watch? Depthing tool maybe?

You all like pictures, so here are some. Final cleaning has not happened yet, thus the dirt and oil on the 4th wheel jewel.

[Randy55]

Afraid this is where it could get down to old school adjustment and observation.

There are pallet setting tools..but the calibrated ones aren't cheap.

The observation holes in the plate will allow you to see if you have one or both stones hanging up/ not engaging on a tooth, That would ofcourse require you to disassemble, heat/move the jewel in/out as required..by eyesight and experience. It's truly trial and error until you get close enough that you could make small adjustments with the banking pins until they drop to the lock freely.

You can use a Potence tool to help hold the rok in place during reassmbly.

Here's a pic of one...made with a piece of old 18s mainspring

You just fold over a roughly 2 inch piece, then file a slot on the end that engages the pallet fork arbor

Edited Sunday at 03:47 PM by Randy55

[mbwatch]

1 hour ago, Randy55 said:

Here's a pic of one...made with a piece of old 18s mainspring

Oh that's neat. I typically use a thin strap of rodico laid over the pallet fork to affix it to the upper plate but it can be hard to retrieve sometimes.

And as I did more research, I may have just found your own earlier explanation: https://learntimeonline.com/forums/topic/potence-clip-for-full-plate-p-ws/

[Mercurial]

There is a tool that was made for setting up and adjusting escapements of full plate watches. 

There were two styles, the picture below shows both of them. 

The lower tool held a movement plate and the vertical pointed rods were adjusted to hold the unsupported pivots of the lever and escape wheel. 

There was also a version of this tool that had 3 adjustable safety centres so that the balance pivot could be supported by the tool : 

The other version I’m aware of is the Boynton’s Escapement Matching and Examining Tool came as a set of two or three clamps that gripped the watch plate and held the safety centres for the pivots :

These do turn up on eBay from time to time. 

For some escapement work, you can set up the parts in a regular depthing tool, with the centres set according to the distance between the corresponding pivot holes on the movement. 

I hope this helps,

Mark

[nevenbekriev]

Yes, the specific old tools do exist, but may be having one is not needed as they are not cheap, and also You will be able to do without it well enough.

My advice will be to use regular depthing tool and adjust it for the exact distance between pallet fork and escape wheel bearings from the watch. Then remove the shellac from the pallet that now doesn't pass the ew teeth and move this pallet in. Then put the pallet fork and ew on the depthing tool and check how they lock. They should not lock when the pallet is in, but You will little by little move the pallet out and locking will appear. Then move just an idea out for reliable work and apply shellac, then check if things are still the same. You have to observe where the teeth fall on the pallets - it must be just a little below the edge between impulse and rest planes. Then You must check how everything behaves in the movement

13 hours ago, Randy55 said:

Afraid this is where it could get down to old school adjustment and observation.

There are pallet setting tools..but the calibrated ones aren't cheap.

The observation holes in the plate will allow you to see if you have one or both stones hanging up/ not engaging on a tooth, That would ofcourse require you to disassemble, heat/move the jewel in/out as required..by eyesight and experience. It's truly trial and error until you get close enough that you could make small adjustments with the banking pins until they drop to the lock freely.

You can use a Potence tool to help hold the rok in place during reassmbly.

Here's a pic of one...made with a piece of old 18s mainspring

You just fold over a roughly 2 inch piece, then file a slot on the end that engages the pallet fork arbor

This Potence tool is so ingenious, but actually, the traditional way to do the things is much more simple. Arrange the parts not on the pillar plate, but on the cover plate. Only the central wheel will remain on the pillar plate, secured by the cannon pinion.

Edited 19 hours ago by nevenbekriev

[JohnR725]

19 hours ago, mbwatch said:

I don't want to move the banking pins

Interesting philosophy I like that but what if, I know this is extremely unlikely after all it's not like they're easy to move what if somebody moved them before you worked on the watch?

[mbwatch]

7 hours ago, Mercurial said:

These do turn up on eBay from time to time. 

For some escapement work, you can set up the parts in a regular depthing tool, with the centres set according to the distance between the corresponding pivot holes on the movement. 

I actually saw this Boynton tool on ebay just a few days ago but had no idea what it was for. Thank you - I'll hunt for it again.

 

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Interesting philosophy I like that but what if, I know this is extremely unlikely after all it's not like they're easy to move what if somebody moved them before you worked on the watch?

Well before I shellacked the stones, the watch did tick long enough for them to become dislodged and long enough that the impulse jewel fell out. So I want to get back to that point first.

[JohnR725]

37 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

So I want to get back to that point first.

in other words you would like the watch to run before doing anything. Yes a full plate watch that's either not running or not running right is not really a fun watch to work with. 

 just a reminder for the future it seems like everyone wants to play with the banking pins and there only for horn clearance. Then once you verified there were there supposed to be then you then you can check the guard pin. then once those things are verified and where there supposed to be then you can play with your pallet stones.

[Mercurial]

42 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

I actually saw this Boynton tool on ebay just a few days ago but had no idea what it was for. Thank you - I'll hunt for it again.

There is one Boynton tool on eBay right now. 

They were sold in pairs or groups of three. One isn’t that helpful alone. 

Many on eBay are incomplete, so check them carefully. The safety centres that hold the pivot must be intact and not blocked by a broken pivot, ask for pictures if needbe to verify this.

They were also made in a few different sizes, so a given set may not be suitable for the movement you want to use it with. 

With patience, I managed to get a matching set of 3 quite cheaply, they sell for much less than the other tool and are often poorly described, and therefore attract few bidders. 

Best Regards,

Mark

[mbwatch]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

in other words you would like the watch to run before doing anything. Yes a full plate watch that's either not running or not running right is not really a fun watch to work with. 

Yes, I know it was able to run before just enough that everything supposed to be affixed with shellac could fall out. I won't get back to work on this watch for several days at least, but one thing you mentioned about the banking pin adjustments being intended for fork horn clearance got me wondering....

The last adjustment I made to the entry stone yesterday did not solve the problem when the balance is installed. The escape teeth can't quite clear the stone when the balance swings. But I thought it was going to work because manually snapping the fork back and forth did allow the escape wheel to advance almost all the time. I wonder if there's another issue with the impulse jewel, that I have to shellac again anyway. I am going to measure the fork slot and the jewel because I am curious if it is the right size or possibly narrower than it should be.

My thinking is if the horn clearance is too great maybe it is not getting enough impulse to clear the escape tooth. But pushing the fork with a tool can move it far enough to clear the escape wheel tooth.  I'll see later in the week. I didn't expect a big challenge from this watch because it ticked for 5 minutes before stopping without shellac. As always I was way wrong.

[JohnR725]

Escapement adjusting always interesting and depending upon the reference always confusing. Okay maybe it's not always confusing but it does lead to confusion.

I have a PDF below it's actually a whole bunch of separate stuff including a hand out that came from a lecture that's on you tube. Then from that we get this image

Consequences of doing things especially if you do things out of order or you do things for the wrong reason. Oh and even if the watches working I made the mistake one so showing my boss how tweaking the banking pins on a full plate on the timing machine made the amplitude get better and now he thinks that's what they're for and I don't think a fully grasped exactly what horn clearance means. Consequence of doing things.

Notice what it says about opening and closing the banking pins and total lock? So yes I've had that on a full plate where it won't unlock at all and that's the banking pins or a combination of things basically.

So banking pins unfortunately get moved. One of the ways to tell if it's been moved is the look straight down at the end of the fork with the balance wheel removed. Power on the fork push at the one side look at it push it to the other side also look at it and compare anything with the center reference the balance jewel and see if both sides of the same. No guarantee after the same there in the right place but at least are the same typically when people play with things one side will be way off from the other because they had no idea what they were doing at all because of course it's a full plate and you really have to paying attention and even then there's still hard to do.

Then the other thing that comes up like it shows below is people often adjust the banking pins to do all those other things as opposed to horn clearance which is all that it's therefore and maybe bonus Guard pin clearance although you're supposed to deal with the guard pin is a separate thing like single roller gets bent in Or out or sometimes physically gets moved in and out. Some full plates older escapement's typically pallet forks held together with screws and you can actually unscrew and move the entire assembly in Or out more complications to deal with.

 

 

Escapement handout wostep nscc.pdf