Elgin Grade 315: Runs/stops with dial down/up

[LittleWatchShop]

23 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

Plenty of other people prefer to just reach through the hairspring suspended on a balance tack but I have caused too much damage that way.

It is how I do it.  Often scary, but so far I have not damaged one.  Removing the balance from the cock and adjusting it on a bench block is truly safer.

[mbwatch]

8 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

Often scary, but so far I have not damaged one.

I don't think I have damaged a pocket watch hairspring but I have messed up a few wrist watches for sure. Also I use a screwdriver - don't have a better tool for it.

[docrpm]

6 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

If the jewel is left of center, turn the collet clockwise

This is becoming almost comical. I rotated the collet slightly...pretty firm friction fit so it didn't move easily. Tried to move it a little more, and the screwdriver slipped and caught the hairspring, which then bent. It's not bent badly, but after fiddling with it for at least 15 minutes, I wasn't able to fix it. I know it's easy for you guys, but not me.

So now I need to buy a new hairspring, which means sourcing, ordering, waiting 1-2 weeks...so sad. And frustrating.

Any recommendations on someone with these parts? I've just been buying them from randos on eBay.

[LittleWatchShop]

14 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

don't have a better tool for it.

I have a few of these.  The post is hollow on the black tool, so that it fits over the staff and the tiny pin fits in the collet slot making it easy to turn.  Frankly, I rarely use it.  But, it is there just in case.

27 minutes ago, docrpm said:

It's not bent badly

show us a picture

[mbwatch]

26 minutes ago, docrpm said:

It's not bent badly, but after fiddling with it for at least 15 minutes, I wasn't able to fix it. I know it's easy for you guys, but not me.

Oh no! Is it bent in near the collet or somewhere else?

27 minutes ago, docrpm said:

randos on eBay.

Yes, ebay randos for donor parts. More specific things like balance staffs, mainsprings, sometimes jewels I may buy from ofrei if the prices are not too high, because they correctly describe what they're selling.

[docrpm]

[LittleWatchShop]

That can be fixed.  The alternative is a balance complete which is gonna come from a donor.

[docrpm]

9 minutes ago, LittleWatchShop said:

That can be fixed.

Thanks...Any guidance you can provide would be helpful. I just don't know where to bend / apply force. I'm sure @nevenbekriev is just shaking his head here.

I do have a piece of good news, which is that another one of my projects is actually moving forward (Hamilton 974 Special, Double roller). Just got that one up and running.

[LittleWatchShop]

2 minutes ago, docrpm said:

guidance

From our very own master.  And here is a more complete tutorial.

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, docrpm said:

It looks like I may have installed the lower hole jewel upside down. Talk about a rookie mistake! It's so darn hard to tell the difference, even with taking photos. Anyway, now it seems like my end shake is reduced and the balance spins freely.

I'm finding this slightly confusing that you would make a mistake like this. The balance hole jewels themselves are very distinctive in how they look. If we were dealing with a modern watch where you have the jewels like the end stone all by itself that often times there is a confusion over which is the curbside in which is the flat side but typically when they're in brass settings that's a lot harder to do.

So down below is the image of how the jewels should look without their settings. I think it really have a tough time getting the balance pivots in through the hole jewel if it was in the upside down?

Then down below is an image of a balance jewel in a setting. You'll notice typically there is a edge in other words is not flat there's two different diameters. One of the problems it happens to a lot of people is when you're putting this jewel into the hole you need to use around toward and push down and make sure it's down flat and not at some weird angle often times they don't fit in very nicely they can go in with a little bit of force. But no matter what it has to be Completely down.

 

Then this is what it looks like all assembled where putting things in upside down seems impossible?

 

I see the restless discussion is gone on to a second page but I will do the collet rotating here and then look at the hairspring nightmare on the other page in a little bit.

 

2 hours ago, docrpm said:

Should I just take the hairspring off and rotate it in the direction to move the impulse jewel (i.e., rotate hairspring one way, impulse jewel orientation will move the other way relative to it).

My preferred way is leave the collet on the staff because anytime you do anything with it as you've observed it can sometimes lead the problem. Then you always want to have a clear view of the collet so rotating it in clever fashions in the watch can lead to disaster so it's much better if the balance is off the bridge if you can do that

2 hours ago, mbwatch said:

Sight through between the banking pins from the escape wheel jewel to the balance jewel. If the jewel is off to the right of center, turn the collet counter clockwise. If the jewel is left of center, turn the collet clockwise. 

One of the ways that makes this a lot easier would be a permanent marking it felt pen that makes tiny dots. So it no power in the watch she manually rotate the balance wheel until it's where it's supposed to be for watch in beat then you site from the center of the balance jewel straight out through the where the stud holder is and put a dot on the balance rim which corresponds to where the stud should be if the watch is in beat. Often times the Swiss companies actually would mark the balance wheel they put a little pinprick there so you would know where your stud is supposed to be

then when you remove the balance wheel you will find the stud will be on one side or the other of your little.you just have to rotate it and I would say it's pretty simple but based on the next page I guess not

then hairspring tools not just for rotating hairspring as they came in a set unfortunately I no longer have the box which makes finding the set a bit of a challenge

Of the tools the orange one in the middle is the most popular at work it keeps getting borrowed by my coworkers. Yes I work in a shop where personal tools apparently belong to everyone else in the shop such a bizarre concept. So this often means I have to go looking for my tools so I can do my work.

Then he ever variety of tips and these tools are all designed for straightening out hairspring problems not everything is a band a lot of times things have just they look really bad but they're not actually been to a lot of these tools will help with that

Then the largest handled tool from the side view is basically a very long taper. When you're rotating the collet screwdrivers are extremely bad as you do not want to try the collet open as it leads to breaking. The tool itself should ideally drop into the slot with no effort and if you let go of the tool it should just fall over practically than other words there should be no aggressive force it just drops in.

This is what the tool looks like in use. If you didn't have a tool like this you could just sharpen a screwdriver tip to having a nice long taper that as I said should literally drop into the slot. Then because the balance wheels out it makes it a lot easier to see what you're doing also

 

1 hour ago, docrpm said:

This is becoming almost comical. I rotated the collet slightly...pretty firm friction fit so it didn't move easily. Tried to move it a little more, and the screwdriver slipped and caught the hairspring, which then bent. It's not bent badly, but after fiddling with it for at least 15 minutes, I wasn't able to fix it. I know it's easy for you guys, but not me.

What can I say here? Remember this is saying that has to do with cutting wood for instance measure twice cut once and I words figure out what you're doing before you do it. A lot of times hairsprings that look bent aren't really bent. Sometimes things are just overlapping this is where studying the hairspring first before fixing which typically people will bend so you're right your hairspring is now bent. So fiddling with it not grasping what you're doing yes that's definitely an issue now.

[RichardHarris123]

I would put a lock on the drawers. 

[docrpm]

So I’m thinking that rather than dig this particular hole any deeper, I should just buy a new balance. After consulting the Elgin part catalog and comparing my serial number, I think balance complete 4093 should be correct:

https://ebay.us/m/2mJNSD

As to how I could install the jewel upside down, I agree. I don’t see how it’s possible. One odd thing though: this jewel isn’t held in brass. It’s steel. 

[nevenbekriev]

Ok, such things happen, even in best families...

The good thing is that it is damaged only in one place. I have marked this place on the pictures. This seems to me like #2 type bending only, which means it is twisted.  So You will need to grasp with 2 tweezers the ends of the twisted portion and untwist it by twisting in the opposite direction. Hopefully, there will be no #3 bending. It will be confirmed if the untwisting will be able to bring the spring in one plain. Then only #1 bending will remain, which is easier, but picture will be needed after rectifying #2.

[docrpm]

19 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

So You will need to grasp with 2 tweezers the ends of the twisted portion and untwist it by twisting in the opposite direction

Should I attempt this with the spring on the balance wheel, or should I take it off?

[nevenbekriev]

I would not take the spring off, but this is because I am lazy. But may be it will be easier for You to take it off.

It is important to be able to locate the bent place. It is well seen now, but when the spring gets better, locating the place may get harder. So, it is 7th coil from the beginning and direction is about 80 degr against the stud (there is picture so no need to remember)

[docrpm]

3 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

It is important to be able to locate the bent place.

From your annotated image, I was able to locate it, but I hadn't been able to ascertain the bend. My unsophisticated eye wasn't looking for a slight twist, which I think I see now. I'll go back and read the referenced posts as well, since they will likely help me understand in greater detail.

Maybe I'm making things better?