Oops, bought a lathe.

[Dell]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

 

As far as I can tell Dell you hold the graver very differently to how I do for turning a cylinder. The ground edge I hold uppermost and cut using the center of the graver, maybe thats a woodturning thing I do.

 

it depends on what I am doing sometimes I use diamond up especially when turning brass because it is best turned with negative rake and it’s easier to get negative with diamond up , I also use it for turning very small blue steel but then the graver is a lot smaller.

Dell

[mbwatch]

That was a long week and a half of waiting. The box arrived today, so check back in for some photos in a few hours.

[mbwatch]

Okay here it is! It needs cleaning of course. But more than grease and grime it's cat hair tucked in every crevice. I'm a dog person.

I mounted a center in the tailstock but had none for the headstock, so I found the pointiest thing laying on my desk that would also fit in one of my collets - a springbar for the razor blade test. I cannot find a serial number on the tailstock so I don't know if they are matched but it does seem well centered. They are probably not matched, probably not even the same manufacturer because the locking levers have different profiles. I know you're all thinking what an idiot for buying a frankenlathe, but this was not a lot of money and I think is going to be just fine to get started. The bed is labeled "American Watch Tool Co" and the headstock "Webster Whitcomb."

It came with 3 random collets - 5, 20, and something unmarked that looks to be around 40-45; I didn't measure it yet. And two tailstock spindles - the center, and another the seller says was made to hold 3mm drill bits with a grub screw but he hadn't used for the purpose and can't vouch for it being centered to the headstock - looks homemade. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. 

I don't like the Borel base, as it does not appear to be a great match for the length of the lathe bed - the base could be an inch narrower for a better fit. As someone suggested up the thread, I will keep an eye out for a lone pedestal base and consider mounting it conventionally to a wood board.

The back edge of the bed is a little rough, if the tailstock is all the way out at the end, but it's clean and smooth toward the tailstock where it will mostly matter.

The collet lever on the tool rest might be stripped, or I might be using it incorrectly. The post can be inserted and has a strong friction grip, stable. But rotating the collar around it does not seem to have any tightening or loosening effect. Not sure what is happening there but I'll investigate further when I start cleaning.

Lastly I have this arbor but I don't know what it's for. It has a large slotted screw and a brass ring about 1.5mm thick over the end of the arbor. I was thinking this might be for mounting a mop? Seems too small or not robust enough for a grinding wheel. Thoughts?

So now I need a motor; I have seen plenty of information on what sorts of modern motors people like. And I live a short mile from a surplus store, the kind of place you'd go if you needed to build a robot from random parts for high school competition, which has bins and bins of motors of all types at like $10.

And I'll need more collets and a lot of other stuff I'll start watching out for. I won a set of larger step collets at auction I hope will be the right size for pocket watch wheels when they come in.

One thing I'm not clear on is what sort of arbor or faceplate is used when driving a lathe dog to turn between centers. I found a good source for new rather than vintage/old 8mm dead centers but I don't know what attachment is supposed to push the dog if a dead center is mounted in the headstock. So much to learn. And buy.

[caseback]

Just some points over breakfast (with disclaimer: I'm no lathe expert ), I'd say the bed is a bit short for this combination head/tailstock. There's very little room for the rest. But like you said it will get you started. If you ever find a longer one: as long as the headstock and tailstock are a decent match, mounting them together on another bed won't influence their alignment.

I think the arbor you show is for holding cutters. I have 2 of them as well, but no cutters, so I'm not 100% certain.

For turning between centres you can use a carrier chuck. 

I can recommend this book, tons of information!

The base is small and flimsy. Getting a bigger one will improve stability. If you access to a bigger lathe or milling machine in your area, making one would be faster and cheaper then sourcing a "factory" base. I could help you with that, but I'm on the other side of the globe.

A simple option for holding drills could be this. I got a ER8 (you could also use ER11 or bigger) collet holder. They sell these with different shaft diameters. In this video I used a 6mm version in a brass tube (7mm OD, 0.5mm wall thickness) but I have an 8mm version for my bigger WW-style lathe as well.

 

Edited January 28 by caseback

[tomh207]

I’m very sure the collet you’re unsure about is for holding slitting saws.

 

Tom

[Dell]

As tomh207 has said

The arbor is for a slitting saw ( some call them slotting saws ) to check for true head to tail alignment put some mild steel in headstock turn to a point then use blade as you have done.

I also recommend the book that caseback has posted about , as for turning between centres some carrier plates ( some call them catch plate ) have centre integral to the carrier but some have a larger threaded hole & use a collet to hold the centre so look for one caseback added a picture of, you will also need dogs.

Dell

Edited January 28 by Dell
Forgot something

[caseback]

Upon closer inspection:I have 2 different style arbors.

The top one is like yours. It has a nice square shoulder at the end to hold a thin part (like a saw blade).

The bottom one has the flat reference surface much closer to the spindle. That one might be for holding thicker cutters.

 

Edited January 28 by caseback

[mbwatch]

Thanks for your replies @caseback, @Dell, @tomh207

8 hours ago, caseback said:

A simple option for holding drills could be this. I got a ER8 (you could also use ER11 or bigger) collet holder.

I also ran across the ER11 and ER8 collet adapters last night and bookmarked that company. They were very reasonable, I think only about $99 for the adapter and 10 collets.

8 hours ago, caseback said:

I'd say the bed is a bit short for this combination head/tailstock.

Yeah the bed length is just 10 inches. I do see beds sold individually so if this is too constrained I can go up to 12in.

I need to read about the expand/contract capacity of my WW collets. Since my smallest is 0.50mm, i.e. what is the largest and smallest diameter it can grip, to inform my shopping list. I don't think I will be buying a full set of collets, but I do know that I will need to grip 0.2mm-0.3mm wheel arbors in the shorter term and otherwise I will probably just buy as I need.

I am seeing a few carrier chucks for sale that fit 6mm lathes, and one female center for 8mm but I know what to watch for.

My first planned project will be to turn a new inner punch for one of my K&D #50 balance staff removers. I have 2 sizes of that tool and strangely they don't use the same punch. I think I can manage it since it is bashing tool and not a precision punch. It just has to fit through the right diameters without too much slop.

 

Before anything else though, I need a motor.

[tomh207]

The way these collets work there is not a range of material held, a 0.5mm chuck is for 0.5mm stock, not 0.4 nor 0.6. Using it for anything more than a couple of hundreds (0.048 - 0.52mm) will cause damage to the collet.

 

Tom

[caseback]

1 hour ago, mbwatch said:

Thanks for your replies @caseback, @Dell, @tomh207

 

I need to read about the expand/contract capacity of my WW collets. Since my smallest is 0.50mm, i.e. what is the largest and smallest diameter it can grip, to inform my shopping list. I don't think I will be buying a full set of collets, but I do know that I will need to grip 0.2mm-0.3mm wheel arbors in the shorter term and otherwise I will probably just buy as I need.

You want the collets to be as close to the diameter of the material as possible. Forcing them open will damage them. Screwing them tight as well. And they won't hold the piece properly if you do. 

Fortunately, 8mm collets are not rare and are often interchangeable between manufacturers. Worst case, you need to make an extra draw bar.

Edited January 28 by caseback

[Neverenoughwatches]

Looks cool on your bench Michael if nothing else. If its holding a razor straight up and down and if it spins as well then the headstocks alignment must be ok. That part is important for drilling operations but not essential as you will see when you watch Nev work his magic. If using a jacot accessory for polishing pivots or turning a staff between centers then its probably more crucial. But for face and short work when the tailstock isn't needed then obviously any misalignment doesn't come into it. 

7 hours ago, caseback said:

Upon closer inspection:I have 2 different style arbors.

The top one is like yours. It has a nice square shoulder at the end to hold a thin part (like a saw blade).

The bottom one has the flat reference surface much closer to the spindle. That one might be for holding thicker cutters.

 

Grinding wheels Cees

[Dell]

Until you can find the correct collets ( not easy or cheap ) I would look at getting an 8mm to ER8 chuck, the good thing about ER is the grip range of each collet it will get you able to start getting used to using the lathe, they are available on eBay the picture is my 10mm ER 11 set although I don’t use it very often now   .

Dell

[mbwatch]

13 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

That part is important for drilling operations but not essential as you will see when you watch Nev work his magic

I have been watching some videos of free-hand drilling to repivot 4th wheels and it gave me a lot of unearned confidence "I could do that!" - we'll see once I get the thing powered.

I will order a set of ER8 collets right away.

I have seen some let's say inexpensive 3 jaw chucks on ebay and ali (as well as other vendors who are probably shipping the same products at a markup) - has anyone gambled on a $60 3 jaw chuck as opposed to $400? At early stages I would only use it for some rough toolmaking. Nothing requiring super precision. But I would not want something that will shake itself to pieces under rotational forces.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, mbwatch said:

Thanks for your replies @caseback, @Dell, @tomh207

I also ran across the ER11 and ER8 collet adapters last night and bookmarked that company. They were very reasonable, I think only about $99 for the adapter and 10 collets.

Yeah the bed length is just 10 inches. I do see beds sold individually so if this is too constrained I can go up to 12in.

I need to read about the expand/contract capacity of my WW collets. Since my smallest is 0.50mm, i.e. what is the largest and smallest diameter it can grip, to inform my shopping list. I don't think I will be buying a full set of collets, but I do know that I will need to grip 0.2mm-0.3mm wheel arbors in the shorter term and otherwise I will probably just buy as I need.

I am seeing a few carrier chucks for sale that fit 6mm lathes, and one female center for 8mm but I know what to watch for.

My first planned project will be to turn a new inner punch for one of my K&D #50 balance staff removers. I have 2 sizes of that tool and strangely they don't use the same punch. I think I can manage it since it is bashing tool and not a precision punch. It just has to fit through the right diameters without too much slop.

 

Before anything else though, I need a motor.

You're gonna get some wobble if the collet size does not match the workpiece.  Collets are 0 .1mm incremental you might get away with a couple of hundredths over size on workpieces ? maybe a tenth or two  under size depending on what size of collet you are using , my bigger ones start to increment to 0.2 mm when they reach 3mm .

[nickelsilver]

Basic rule for the type of collet used in watchmaker lathes, i.e. that close at the end (and not all over like ER), is you can go undersize a little with the stock, but not oversize. If you put a piece that measures 1.90mm in a 2.00 collet, it will hold OK. The collet will actually collaps a bit further down the bore, not complete contact, but decent. If you put oversize stock in, it's being held at the rear of the collet bore, and to get the front to close much at all isn't going to happen- so the stock is wiggling all over the place.

 

One rare instance I might put oversize stock in a collet is holding a staff by the roller diameter. This is a taper, so I might put one that measures 0.45 in a 0.4 collet, as it kind of "matches up".

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

have been watching some videos of free-hand drilling to repivot 4th wheels and it gave me a lot of unearned confidence "I could do that!" - we'll see once I get the thing powered.

You can do it Michael,  you will be surprised how easy it is. Some of my first lathing involved very free hand drilling, just using the tailstock to support my work hand. I recently followed something similar to Cees...first a brass sleeve to fit inside a tailstock runner...it wasn't too accurate but ok ....then just a 7mm bar to fit directly into the tailstock with an 1/8 hole to take hold of the 1/8 shank carbide drills....still not 100% in alignment but very close and just enough tolerance to center the drill bit and run it inside.

[mbwatch]

11 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

then just a 7mm bar to fit directly into the tailstock with an 1/8 hole to take hold of the 1/8 shank carbide drills....still not 100% in alignment but very close and just enough tolerance to center the drill bit and run it inside.

I believe this is what my second tailstock runner is.

16 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

Basic rule for the type of collet used in watchmaker lathes, i.e. that close at the end (and not all over like ER), is you can go undersize a little with the stock, but not oversize.

Great info @nickelsilver thank you.

I have so many questions for all of you but I think I need to just sit back and read through a couple of the textbooks before I do much else.

1 hour ago, caseback said:

Worst case, you need to make an extra draw bar.

I think I understand that the Moseley collets (+ maybe others) have a longer shank. Therefore a shorter drawbar would be needed.

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

I believe this is what my second tailstock runner is.

Great info @nickelsilver thank you.

I have so many questions for all of you but I think I need to just sit back and read through a couple of the textbooks before I do much else.

There isn't a whole lot in the De Carle book regarding technique, the lists are useful, I cant think there was much about handtools either..it was an ok- ish read. I actually got more from this old geezer about general lathes, just a cheap whimsical buy that was worth the effort, i dont think it was as much as a fiver for a couple of hundred pages.

More about bigger lathes but a lot of the same principles apply.

[caseback]

12 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

think I understand that the Moseley collets (+ maybe others) have a longer shank. Therefore a shorter drawbar would be needed.

You could make a drawbar with a threaded section on the back as well, so you can adjust it's length.

There is someone on ebay selling taps and dies for cutting internal and external threads for 6 and 8mm collets. I bought a tap for the 6mm collets and a die for 8mm, and I'm very happy with their quality.

Edited January 28 by caseback

[mbwatch]

1 minute ago, caseback said:

You could make a drawbar with a threaded section on the back as well, so you can adjust it's length.

I think this product serves the purpose

 

8 minutes ago, caseback said:

I bought a tap for the 6mm collets and a die for 8mm, and I'm very happy with their quality.

Oh yeah - same company here who sells the adjustable drawbar sold you your tap & die.

[Dell]

mbwatch 

There is a watchmaker lathe course that I used years ago when I first started called learntimeonline, it’s only a one off membership payment & not very expensive as if you purchase the ultra course it also covers watches and clocks, although I purchased the ultra course I only used the 15 part ( think it was 15 ) lathe course & the course can be download and viewed on a tv but because I only restore torsion clocks I have no need of the other but you never know, Bob Tascione the owner always asks me to comment if someone posts a question on torsion ( Anniversary) clocks on the forum , also I think there is a special offer on at the moment for the ultra course and it also includes Hermle movement $77 for lifetime membership.

No connection other than buying the ultra course wasn’t sure if it was okay to add link so just google search .

Dell

 

 

[mbwatch]

1 hour ago, Dell said:

There is a watchmaker lathe course that I used years ago when I first started called learntimeonline

Thanks - yes I have come across this course before and it's good to know you endorse it

[SwissSeiko]

21 hours ago, mbwatch said:

I think this product serves the purpose

 

Oh yeah - same company here who sells the adjustable drawbar sold you your tap & die.

I bought that draw bar. Its ok, but its aluminum. Youll want to cut it to length as well, if too much material is out the back, itll vibrate like crazy. Not a super precise piece, but it works. I think it needs a small taper on the handle so that it centers itself on the spindle. 

[nickelsilver]

On 1/28/2025 at 4:49 AM, mbwatch said:

 The bed is labeled "American Watch Tool Co" and the headstock "Webster Whitcomb."

 

The American Watch Tool Co. made Webster Whitcomb lathes, which are really the origin of the "American style" 8mm lathe, with 50mm center height, and their corresponding collet is the prototype for most other 8mm collets. The WW collet has a body diameter of 0.3147", or just a hair over 7.99mm. This is to fit the bore of the headstock, which should be bang-on 8mm.

 

The thread pitch as listed by Hardinge (another high class maker of lathes as well as collets) is 0.63mm. It is sometimes listed as above as 0.625mm, or sometimes 40tpi (threads per inch) which is 0.635mm. Schaublin, the current maker of the best 8mm collets, have a pitch of 0.625mm. I have used G.Boley, Boley-Leinen, Levin, Schaublin, and some others in my old American Watch Tool lathe with no issues (it was last century but I do remember!). And also do so in my Leinen "WW82" lathe- guess where the "WW" comes from?

 

The AWT Co. morphed into Derbyshire early last century, who are apparently still in business. Your tip-over rest looks like a Derbyshire.

 

Mosely came up with another collet style, with a curved head they called "conoidal". These were also longer in length than regular WW 8mm collets. Later they made similar length collets with a more standard straight taper. I would avoid them overall; high quality but they are too far from standard to be practical.

 

In theory tailstocks for AWT Co. machines are interchangeable. As they are on (later model) Leinen machines. Levin, who made superb machines supposedly on the WW pattern, are a bit all over the map and don't really interchange in my experience.

 

Your bed length looks fine. 12" was pretty standard, and looks like what you have. My Leinen is also 12", and it's never been a problem in decades of use.

 

Here's an image from a 1913 Hardinge catalog showing the different collets they made then (it expanded later); you can see there are a number that are "around" 8mm, and many others larger and smaller. Best to get a seller to measure the body diameter as closely as possible when buying.

 

 

And a pic of my Leinen for comparison.

 

Edited January 29 by nickelsilver

[mbwatch]

@nickelsilver Thanks again for all this info. It is really helpful to have pros sharing experience and I'm grateful. 

On 1/29/2025 at 10:33 AM, nickelsilver said:

Your bed length looks fine. 12" was pretty standard, and looks like what you have. My Leinen is also 12", and it's never been a problem in decades of use.

I measure it at 10" so it is on the small side, but I am sure it will get me underway. I have a $20 sewing machine motor and some belt stock coming in tomorrow and so might get that mounted this weekend. Nothing else planned before I clean the cat hair out of the headstock though.