0S Pocket Watch Case or Movement Help

[Trav2004]

Hello all,

     I am working on a Waltham 0S pocket watch.  I have cleaned and reassembled the movement and that is up and running again but I can't get it to wind up using the case stem. Are you supposed to push in to wind it or is that to just release the hunter case front?  Either way if you push it in or not it won't wind.  Does the case tube insert thing need to be adjusted in or something?  Sorry if it's a noob question this is the first pocket watch I've ever worked on. 

[AndyGSi]

Can you show a photo of the movement and keyless works.

[Trav2004]

There's one of the keyless works before it was cleaned and one of it reassembled and the working movement.

[AndyGSi]

I presume you didn't wind it before you stripped it down?

You should press the crown in to wind.

Have you tried removing the crown from the case and trying to wind it then?

[Trav2004]

Before it was fully wound and not working.  Didn't think to try winding it before disassembly.  How would you go about removing the stem?  I can remove the crown but there is a steel band that goes around the inside of the case that still holds the stem in.

[AndyGSi]

If you unscrew the crown the stem should just some out.

[Trav2004]

The steel band prevents that. The insert inside the tube prevents it from coming out the tube and the steel band acts as a spring for the cover release and the stem is too thick to go thru it. I wonder if that small C shaped spring in the keyless works is somehow out of place and that's why it won't wind. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

Hey Trav, work backwards from what you know and understand of how the keyless works function.  To wind the watch a few things need to happen, providing the barrel and mainspring are storing energy from your hand action on the pendant and the ratchet and crown wheel are transferring that energy. Firstly the clutch (2) must engage the crown wheel ( the first big wheel in the train for the winding mech ). Next the winding pinion (1)  this needs to be meshed with the sliding clutch, your first photo shows this is taking place. The final connection is the stem with winding pinion and clutch,without me knowing the exact set up here as i dont repair pocket watches,  is the stem split ? I cant quite tell from your pics, but i tnink so. If so do the two halves connect together ( a square pin and socket ) to function as one unit ?  I think so.  The pendant is possibly held in place by the bow in a stem groove. @JohnR725 will know all this.

I doubt as that wouldn't permit winding and time set 

[Trav2004]

I don't know if the stem is split or not... I don't dare putting too much stress on things and end up breaking them.   I do plan on trying to make my own bench key so I can wind it without the case and see if the stem in the case just isn't pressing in deep enough but that may take awhile. 

[AndyGSi]

The tube could unscrew from the case but probably easier just to put it in the case without the dial and see what happens.

[mbwatch]

This is an American watch, so the "normal" position of the stem in the keyless is the "out" position where the spring is pushing it outward. The case must hold the stem inward to keep it in winding mode when it would otherwise want to pop out to setting mode.

The stem is not split. It will be held in probably by a threaded case sleeve, and the case sleeve is responsible for adjusting the depth of the stem into the movement. If it is adjusted out too far, the stem will never engage deep enough to put the watch in winding mode. If it is in too far, it will never leave winding mode. Don't try to pull the stem out as it is, you will probably break the sleeve.

A sleeve looks like this, though with variations in the number of slots in the big end. It holds the stem, allowing it to slide over its detent.

With the crown unscrewed and removed, look into the top of the pendant tube. You should see threads and also 4 or perhaps 2 slots or divots. Those are meant to engage with a "sleeve wrench" which is used to turn the case sleeve in and out. It's a tool that looks like this, with many different sized and styles of tips:

Probably you just need to turn in the case sleeve 1 or 1.5 turns and it will engage the movement's winding correctly. Here's a video of JD Richard adjusting one.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugiH0FvERqc

 

Edited September 29, 2024 by mbwatch

[JohnR725]

15 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

is the stem split ? I cant quite tell from your pics, but i tnink so. If so do the two halves connect together ( a square pin and socket ) to function as one unit ?  I think so.  The pendant is possibly held in place by the bow in a stem groove.

I hate coming late discussions like this where a lot of confusion this is a standard American pocket watch case.

American pocket watches came into existence before the modern split stem. Or basically the modern stem altogether. In fact they came into existence there are no stems at all.

If you look The message of @mbwatch He shows the components or the main component of what's holding the stem in which is the sleeve. Sleeves can be a real pain in the ass if there's a problem here as the really hard to find and yes there are lots and lots of different shapes and sizes.

Ideally we need to determine whether the problem is with the sleeve or the watch. So for instance if you push in on the crown and rotate does the watch wind at all? Plus when the watch was incoming was their winding and setting problem in the first place?

 

 

 

 

The stem is held in the case with the sleeve which is pictured up above. We do need to figure out whether the problem is a sleeve problem or a watch problem this is where it be nice if you had your bench keys. Sometimes if you're lucky they can be purchased on eBay otherwise you'll have to make something but you really need to have these to figure out what's going on with your winding and setting

 

 

[nevenbekriev]

Something to mention here - to check the function of the movement, You can use the stem and the crown instead of bench key. You just need to take them out of the case. Two things needed for that - one is to unscrew the crown (the square part of the stem must be held with something). The other - the spring lock for the front cover (You call it 'steel band) has to be removed, as the stem goes out only in direction 'to the center'.

I guess that You rather have movement problem, as if the crown is pushed to the end touching the case and still no winding happens, this is for sure not due sleeve fault or wrong adjustment

[Neverenoughwatches]

44 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I hate coming late discussions like this where a lot of confusion this is a standard American pocket watch case.

American pocket watches came into existence before the modern split stem. Or basically the modern stem altogether. In fact they came into existence there are no stems at all.

If you look The message of @mbwatch He shows the components or the main component of what's holding the stem in which is the sleeve. Sleeves can be a real pain in the ass if there's a problem here as the really hard to find and yes there are lots and lots of different shapes and sizes.

Ideally we need to determine whether the problem is with the sleeve or the watch. So for instance if you push in on the crown and rotate does the watch wind at all? Plus when the watch was incoming was their winding and setting problem in the first place?

 

 

 

 

The stem is held in the case with the sleeve which is pictured up above. We do need to figure out whether the problem is a sleeve problem or a watch problem this is where it be nice if you had your bench keys. Sometimes if you're lucky they can be purchased on eBay otherwise you'll have to make something but you really need to have these to figure out what's going on with your winding and setting

 

 

Yey John to the rescue, my pocketwatch knowledge is about as good as my mystery tool pallet fork/balance gripper knowledge

[Trav2004]

Thanks for the knowledge guys.   It seems like when I was first looking the watch over if I pushed in the crown firmly I could get it to engage somewhat but it was fully wound so I couldn't do much winding.  I will try to fully put the watch into the case with the case screws and see if I can get better engagement that way.   If I work on any further pocket watches I think I definitely will need one of those 10 spoke tools.  How would you go about removing the spring lock to free up the stem?

[mbwatch]

38 minutes ago, Trav2004 said:

If I work on any further pocket watches I think I definitely will need one of those 10 spoke tools

You might be able to improvise something with the watch you're working on. Since it is 0 size, you might be able to unscrew the sleeve by sticking sturdy tweezers into the slots unless the threads are stiffly seized inside (don't wreck your good tweezers). You can grab the square part of the stem with pliers and hold it while unscrewing the crown. Then you don't need to remove the ring inside, the stem will come out with the sleeve from the top. However, if you can turn the sleeve with tweezers you might just try turning it inward 1 rotation and see if the stem engages winding better.

[Trav2004]

4 minutes ago, mbwatch said:

You might be able to improvise something with the watch you're working on. Since it is 0 size, you might be able to unscrew the sleeve by sticking sturdy tweezers into the slots unless the threads are stiffly seized inside (don't wreck your good tweezers). You can grab the square part of the stem with pliers and hold it while unscrewing the crown. Then you don't need to remove the ring inside, the stem will come out with the sleeve from the top. However, if you can turn the sleeve with tweezers you might just try turning it inward 1 rotation and see if the stem engages winding better.

Thanks mbwatch I'll try that tonight.

[Trav2004]

7 hours ago, mbwatch said:

You might be able to improvise something with the watch you're working on. Since it is 0 size, you might be able to unscrew the sleeve by sticking sturdy tweezers into the slots unless the threads are stiffly seized inside (don't wreck your good tweezers). You can grab the square part of the stem with pliers and hold it while unscrewing the crown. Then you don't need to remove the ring inside, the stem will come out with the sleeve from the top. However, if you can turn the sleeve with tweezers you might just try turning it inward 1 rotation and see if the stem engages winding better.

Mbwatch I did try with the tweezers but I felt like I was going to bend them all out of shape.   And now I feel a bit foolish.  I put the movement back in the case and it wound up just fine.   I don't know why it wasn't before.  Hopefully it keeps doing that.   Thanks for all the help and advice!

[mbwatch]

Sometimes the movement doesn't seat perfectly into the case, affecting stem depth while it still screws in securely. Some cases have more slop than others in this regard but 0.25mm is all it takes to possibly throw off the keyless function. I'm glad it's working better this time.

Edited October 1, 2024 by mbwatch

[CYCLOPS]

make sure that thin sliding lever buried in the plate and runs parallel to the winding wheels is in the correct position, it can be used to hold it in a certain position [winding/setting]

[Trav2004]

I always wondered what you are supposed to do with that...