Three Arm Soviet shock springs.

[Simeon]

These are driving me mad. The score currently starts at lost: 2, broken: 2. I have read what I can find on them, watched videos and made two different tools. 

I am trying to service a Slava 2427 which has fought me every step of the way. I have blown through the two springs on this watch and the two on my donor movement. I have three more donors on their way and genuinely concerned that I am going to waste those as well. 

I understand the theory of getting two legs under the lip and the third above the cutout before turning with a tool. I actually had the balance one installed at one point but I thought it needed rotating slightly more and... it came out again!

I made a tool out of pegwood and one out of an old springbar. The springbar was probably the best overall but I managed to shear the legs off two of them through pressing it down. 

I lost one trying to install it manually with just some probes/ tweezers - what a mistake that was. The other one I lost in a mystery manner with it stepping into another dimension (it *might* be caught in the hole at the end of the pegwood tool). Of course they are non-magnetic so can't be found with a magnet. 

I have a couple of weeks to wait until I get my donors so I need to gird my loins and prepare my spring-fu (cue training montage).

Would it be worth buying real Kif tools or is there another tool that's better? I have a sticky jewel picker tool on its way, perhaps that could help with handling the springs? Any other tips? Perhaps I need to just suck-it-up and keep trying?

[Knebo]

Putting a thin plastic sheet on top has worked wonders for me. It helps a lot keeping everything steady. Work "through" the plastic for the third arm.

[HectorLooi]

The Soviet springs aren't the worst. They only have one cutout, whereas the KIF Trior has 3 cutouts and you have to press all 3 legs down through the cutouts, then turn.

The KIF tools are a real timesaver and lifesaver. I use them all the time for any 3 pronged spring. 

But fresh, out of the box, they don't work so well. I got the steel ones which are quite hard and tend to slip, rather than grip the spring. I had to roughen the tips with a dental diamond round bur.

And sometimes, the jewel is so domed that the legs of the tool don't press down enough to get the spring into the cutout. I had to use the diamond bur to hollow out the tips to increase the reach.

Maybe the brass ones from Cousins work better.

But I think the biggest help was the microscope. You have to see the legs actually going into the cutout.

Edited August 20, 2024 by HectorLooi
Typo

[Neverenoughwatches]

5 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

The Soviet springs aren't the worst. They only have one cutout, whereas the KIF Trior has 3 cutouts and you have to press all 3 legs down through the cutouts, then turn.

The KIF tools are a real timesaver and lifesaver. I use them all the time for any 3 pronged spring. 

But fresh, out of the box, they don't work so well. I got the steel ones which are quite hard and tend to slip, rather than grip the spring. I had to roughen the tips with a dental diamond round bur.

And sometimes, the jewel is so domed that the legs of the tool don't press down enough to get the spring into the cutout. I had to use the diamond bur to hollow out the tips to increase the reach.

Maybe the brass ones from Cousins work better.

But I think the biggest help was the microscope. You have to see the legs actually going into the cutout.

Later oris have the trior, the russian springs are not a patch on them for difficulty without the kif tools 

6 hours ago, Simeon said:

These are driving me mad. The score currently starts at lost: 2, broken: 2. I have read what I can find on them, watched videos and made two different tools. 

I am trying to service a Slava 2427 which has fought me every step of the way. I have blown through the two springs on this watch and the two on my donor movement. I have three more donors on their way and genuinely concerned that I am going to waste those as well. 

I understand the theory of getting two legs under the lip and the third above the cutout before turning with a tool. I actually had the balance one installed at one point but I thought it needed rotating slightly more and... it came out again!

I made a tool out of pegwood and one out of an old springbar. The springbar was probably the best overall but I managed to shear the legs off two of them through pressing it down. 

I lost one trying to install it manually with just some probes/ tweezers - what a mistake that was. The other one I lost in a mystery manner with it stepping into another dimension (it *might* be caught in the hole at the end of the pegwood tool). Of course they are non-magnetic so can't be found with a magnet. 

I have a couple of weeks to wait until I get my donors so I need to gird my loins and prepare my spring-fu (cue training montage).

Would it be worth buying real Kif tools or is there another tool that's better? I have a sticky jewel picker tool on its way, perhaps that could help with handling the springs? Any other tips? Perhaps I need to just suck-it-up and keep trying?

Just a fine needle in the center of the spring will prevent it from flight. Or sharp pegwood or a plastic tool or a condomed toothpick, whatever takes your fancy really as long as the spring is contained

Edited August 20, 2024 by Neverenoughwatches

[rjenkinsgb]

I've not seen those soviet ones, but they sound similar to the Seiko type, with three equally spaced arms & one cutout?

I start those with one arm in, opposite the cutout. Then set it using my two smallest screwdrivers, one kept inside and holding the spring away from the cutout, the other helping turn it and set the arms as they line up.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

14 minutes ago, rjenkinsgb said:

I've not seen those soviet ones, but they sound similar to the Seiko type, with three equally spaced arms & one cutout?

I start those with one arm in, opposite the cutout. Then set it using my two smallest screwdrivers, one kept inside and holding the spring away from the cutout, the other helping turn it and set the arms as they line up.

 

Similar to the diashock springs, lets do a side by side comparison before i go to work .

[JohnL]

I made the standard tool from a cocktail stick (and another from the plastic of a covid test swizzle-stick) in the standard way, then cut three notches in it with a razor blade. I fit the three arms of the tool in the gaps of the spring so it requires minimal downward pressure and then push the arms of the spring into the gap with a tweezers. 

I found the tool without the notches awkward to use, but that was probably just me. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

37 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Similar to the diashock springs, lets do a side by side comparison before i go to work .

Sorry chaps could only find 2 soviet 2400s in the russian tub and both had the shock springs missing, but heres a picture grab of one and 2 two seiko springs for comparison with 2 moving tools. The jewel picker is great for moving springs, this is the smallest available , shame there isn't a smaller one. But you can make your own wooden jewel picker ( condomed tooth pick ) of any size. Shape a toothpick to what you want and then dip it contact adhesive, set to dry for 2 hours , i like evo-stik.

[Simeon]

I meant to attach a photo, just in case anyone doesn't know what they look like.  I have found these ES 95 as a potential supply of shock springs (these *look* like the same springs to me).

I am going to have a look at making a new tool with a smaller diameter again out of something other than pegwood (a Q Tip is a good idea).  My current tool, made from a springbar, fits too well into the hole and risks (actually does) shearing the legs off.  If I make it smaller again then it should just flex the arms downwards over the curve of the cap stone - probably needs to be about the diameter of the chaton.

8 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Sorry chaps could only find 2 soviet 2400s in the russian tub and both had the shock springs missing, but heres a picture grab of one and 2 two seiko springs for comparison with 2 moving tools. The jewel picker is great for moving springs, this is the smallest available , shame there isn't a smaller one. But you can make your own wooden jewel picker ( condomed tooth pick ) of any size. Shape a toothpick to what you want and then dip it contact adhesive, set to dry for 2 hours , i like evo-stik.

Condoming the end of my new tool might do the trick to help it grip the spring and not damage anything.

[JohnL]

[Waggy]

4 hours ago, rjenkinsgb said:

they sound similar to the Seiko type

I've done quite a few of the Seiko three prong type springs and I just used the same process with the Soviet type and never had an issue. I found the key for me is to use two pairs of open No 5 tweezers, the single 'arm' of set A sits in the center of the spring, and does not do anything, and with set B tweezers, use one 'arm' to rotate the spring. If/when it tries to escape the 'arm' of set A will catch it and prevent it from going anywhere

[mbwatch]

6 hours ago, Simeon said:

potential supply of shock springs

Honestly, the best supply of these springs if the Ofrei listing turns out to be wrong - is to buy a boxful of misc Soviet movements from ebay or etsy. Sellers in eastern Europe tend to sell them at rates of like 24 parts movements for $30, providing a long supply of springs and other spares. If you can wait 2 weeks for delivery.

[nevenbekriev]

If I remember correctly, the most convеnient tool for Slava 24 shock absorber springs is a refill (tube) for regular pen. Use the tube to turn the spring in no mater which direction until one of the arms gets out thru the cutout. Then grasp it with tweezers and just remove the spring. No need to turn it any more, the other arms will get out when they get to diametrically oposite parts of the circle. Putting the spring back is in the reverse way

[Simeon]

Just to circle back to this. I received my first donor (from India, a Slava 2427 in a fake Seiko 5 watch). Surprisingly good movement, even trying to run when wound. I only want it for it's shock springs and a few bits from the auto works but I already thinking about servicing it and getting it running.

Donor regret is real

I pulled the shock spring from the balance setting and had a play with installing it. Made a new tool from a smaller diameter springbar, "condomed' it with some evostik glue but had no luck. I used my new jewel picker for moving the spring into position over the jewel, this worked really well and had no untoward moments with it pinging off like I found when using tweezers. 

I next tried using a piece of sharpened 3mm pegwood to slide two of the legs under the retaining lip with a rotating action (first one and the swing the other around underneath). I then held the spring hard against the side with the two inserted legs to keep them in position while I rotated the third leg around with a needle tool. Once the third leg was over the cutout I could then do a push down / drag motion with the needle which tucked the leg under the lip. 

Finally done it! Taking a break before tackling the dial side setting and it's probably not my best work as the balance cock is a bit scratched from all of the earliy failures. 

Thanks all for your assistance and moral support!

[Neverenoughwatches]

35 minutes ago, Simeon said:

Just to circle back to this. I received my first donor (from India, a Slava 2427 in a fake Seiko 5 watch). Surprisingly good movement, even trying to run when wound. I only want it for it's shock springs and a few bits from the auto works but I already thinking about servicing it and getting it running.

Donor regret is real

I pulled the shock spring from the balance setting and had a play with installing it. Made a new tool from a smaller diameter springbar, "condomed' it with some evostik glue but had no luck. I used my new jewel picker for moving the spring into position over the jewel, this worked really well and had no untoward moments with it pinging off like I found when using tweezers. 

I next tried using a piece of sharpened 3mm pegwood to slide two of the legs under the retaining lip with a rotating action (first one and the swing the other around underneath). I then held the spring hard against the side with the two inserted legs to keep them in position while I rotated the third leg around with a needle tool. Once the third leg was over the cutout I could then do a push down / drag motion with the needle which tucked the leg under the lip. 

Finally done it! Taking a break before tackling the dial side setting and it's probably not my best work as the balance cock is a bit scratched from all of the earliy failures. 

Thanks all for your assistance and moral support!

Well done with the spring, you nailed it matey, almost literally,  needled it

[HectorLooi]

Just wondering if a fibre laser engraver would be able to cut tiny parts like shock springs and setting lever springs?

[tomh207]

1 hour ago, HectorLooi said:

Just wondering if a fibre laser engraver would be able to cut tiny parts like shock springs and setting lever springs?

It should be possible Hector, the heat buildup and time would be limiting though. Hobby EDM is coming now, pretty much in the same place 3d printing was in 2013-15 with home brew kits. Looks promising though.

 

Tom