Timegrapher and pin pallet

[Bonefixer]

Continuing my watch fixing journey, I bought a cheap pocket watch off ebay. Turned out to be a jewel-free cheaply made affair, but it ran. I’ve managed to dismantle, clean, and rebuild it, and it’s running well, at least to my eye. 
 

On the timegrapher it’s another matter. Massive beat error giving a snowstorm effect. To my musical ear it sounds regular, but the timegrapher beats 31 times before pausing and starting again. The watch doesn’t stop and continues ticking away. 
 

Are timegraphers a waste of time with pin pallet escapements? There’s no second hand on this watch. Any tips on regulating it (the balance has a regulator arm)?

[praezis]

Generally there is no reason why a TG cannot test pin pallet watches. But some use lower beat rates than 18000 that are not included with cheap TGs . Maybe that is your problem.

Frank

[AndyGSi]

What's the movement and what settings are you using on the timegrapher?

[nevenbekriev]

Hi Doc,

@praezis is correct, no problem to test pin plallet watches on timegrapher. The problem probably is that the timegrapher doesn't support 17280 beat rate, and this beat rate is common for almost all of Roskopf watches. I will advice to use Clock Tuner app for android, the free version. It will accept manually set whatever beat rate You need.

[AndyGSi]

The WeiShi Timegraphers do allow manual set of beat rate @ 17280.

[Waggy]

I always find it a little bit and miss with timegraphers and pin pallets. Sometimes they work and other times they just refuse to give readings you can have confidence in or any reading at all. I think a little depends on the quality of the movement and how much stuff is rattling around throwing off the readings.

[AndyGSi]

49 minutes ago, Waggy said:

I always find it a little bit and miss with timegraphers and pin pallets. Sometimes they work and other times they just refuse to give readings you can have confidence in or any reading at all. I think a little depends on the quality of the movement and how much stuff is rattling around throwing off the readings.

What timegrapher are you using and are you setting the lift angle and beat rate manually?

[Waggy]

Weishi 1000, and just use the auto settings. Guess I should pay more attention and use the manual settings

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, Waggy said:

Guess I should pay more attention and use the manual settings

Typically the auto settings work just fine as That is why they have the auto settings. In order to use the manual settings you have to be aware that other watches exist and conceivably may run into one of those at some point time perhaps. Then comes the fun of guessing which frequency the manual setting should be on as there are quite a few different settings there.

[AndyGSi]

2 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Typically the auto settings work just fine as That is why they have the auto settings. In order to use the manual settings you have to be aware that other watches exist and conceivably may run into one of those at some point time perhaps. Then comes the fun of guessing which frequency the manual setting should be on as there are quite a few different settings there.

Auto setting work just fine for 'modern' watches but it's highly unlikely it's going to be a 'standard' frequency for an old pin pallet pocket watch.

If you know the movement then you should be able to find the frequency and lift angle to suit.

[JohnR725]

46 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

If you know the movement then you should be able to find the frequency and lift angle to suit.

I would be curious as to where we could find the listing of lift angle for vintage pocket watches?

 

[rossjackson01]

11 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I would be curious as to where we could find the listing of lift angle for vintage pocket watches?

 

Happy to oblige. This lists calibres. Hope it is what you want.

https://watchguy.co.uk/cgi-bin/lift_angles

Edited July 10, 2024 by rossjackson01
spelling

[caseback]

7 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Typically the auto settings work just fine as That is why they have the auto settings. In order to use the manual settings you have to be aware that other watches exist and conceivably may run into one of those at some point time perhaps. Then comes the fun of guessing which frequency the manual setting should be on as there are quite a few different settings there.

I guess you could "just" calculate what the frequency is. Using the number of teeth/leaves on the individual wheels going back from the cannon pinion to the escape wheel..

Or take your phone and make a "super slow mo" recording so you can count the number 

[JohnR725]

19 minutes ago, caseback said:

I guess you could "just" calculate what the frequency is. Using the number of teeth/leaves on the individual wheels going back from the cannon pinion to the escape wheel..

Yes you can do the math and figure out the beats per hour.

Or if you have a witschi timing machine for instance you go to frequency mode and see what the actual frequency is. Then you can go look at the chart of all the non-automatic frequencies and pick one that's close because they're usually one of those anyway he has need a way to get there rather than guessing.

6 hours ago, rossjackson01 said:

Happy to oblige. This lists calibres. Hope it is what you want.

Yes that does list lift angles but where the antique watches? There is no vintage in the list because vintage occurred before the newfangled timing machines that needed a lift angle.

[nevenbekriev]

OK, we speek about antique watches. Those about 120 years old and younger usually are with 18000 BPH.  The cylinders too. Exclusions are Roskopfs. 'Chinece' crab-leg duplex and  almost all dead seconds are with 14400. Older Engliish lever and Amreican watches which are full plate with big balance on top, usually have 16XXX BPH and it is needed to count hte teeth. There is second hand, so no other teeth count needed but of the table and pinion of escape wheel and the table of the seconds (4th) wheel. Americn watches are well described and one can easy find BPH in different websites. Lift angles can be measured, but why one will need them? To read the amplitude??? If one will need timegrapher to read the amplitude of a pocket watch, then keep away from such watchmaker and find beter one with more experience.

The verge movements are different and there is great variety of BPH, especially in english ones. The french watches, especially later ones and repeaters, will usually have 18000. But one never knowos untill teeth count is done, so don't forget to count the teeth untill the movement is dissassembled. This is only needed for timekeeping adjustment if the hairspring is replaced or in similar cases. The timegrapher traces of such watches are 'terrible', so less sensitive (with smaller trace slope) adjustment is needed. Chinese timegraphers are useless here. Clock Tuner app performs great with verges.

Edited July 11, 2024 by nevenbekriev

[praezis]

3 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Or if you have a witschi timing machine for instance you go to frequency mode and see what the actual frequency is.

My humble addition for those few who don't have a Witschi: current Version of free PCTM will measure and show the beat rate, too 

Frank