Suggestions for next steps?

[Terrinecold]

I should be working on it later today if time permits.

I was planning to just put it back in the case and look at the other watch but now I think I'll disassemble this one again and work on it.

I won't do a disassembly video as I have done a number and I think that is fine.  But I'll pay attention to making a reassembly one.

I'll try to show under the microscope things like the balance staff pivots and go through all the steps suggested by @ManSkirtBrew

One thing to remember though the movement started with a 123 amplitude and is now at a still low but better 175.  I may be able to find the reason but not sure I'll be able to fix it if it is a real issue

On 7/19/2024 at 2:29 PM, JohnR725 said:

Perhaps we should review your cleaning procedure if you're really not getting your watch clean. In other words you shouldn't have sticky hairspring after cleaning.

Specifically on cleaning the balance any tip is welcome.  I have been cleaning the balance and pallet fork separately from the rest of the watch part as I use IPA as a rinse for all the others.  And I specifically have had problems with the hairspring coils sticking after cleaning them (and if we don't look at this specific movement I have had this issue with a brand new movement with a hairspring which was perfectly fine and clean.

I have been thinking that the product I use (the n-hexane) may be responsible for it.

 

[Terrinecold]

Well we won’t know if I can do better. As I disassembled the movement agai. I lost the click spring. 
I always hold it with peg wood when removing it but it jumped not when I was removing the spring but as I was removing the click.  I should have been holding it down as soon as I removed the ratchet wheel. 
I feel very bad about it as I already lost the same part on the first gym movement I worked on. 

[Terrinecold]

Ok today I put another hmt watch on the operating table. Disassembly went well. I made a video but I am not sure it is worth publishing. 
Sometime next week, likely Tuesday (as other days when I am not working I am climbing) I will clean everything and reassemble the watch.  
This one was in much better shape than the previous. No I crusted dirt on the balance jewel. No indents on the barrel bridge. Too much lubricant in many places but not too bad.  I think I’ll just show the time grapher before state. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 hours ago, Terrinecold said:

Ok today I put another hmt watch on the operating table. Disassembly went well. I made a video but I am not sure it is worth publishing. 
Sometime next week, likely Tuesday (as other days when I am not working I am climbing) I will clean everything and reassemble the watch.  
This one was in much better shape than the previous. No I crusted dirt on the balance jewel. No indents on the barrel bridge. Too much lubricant in many places but not too bad.  I think I’ll just show the time grapher before state. 

What movement is this one ? where are you buying them from ?

[Terrinecold]

same movement, I buy them from ebay

here is one listing

https://www.ebay.com/itm/315226730048?itmmeta=01J3ZBHMWDVYV7C8PEZVQKY4MS&hash=item4964fa2e40:g:uRIAAOSw8k9l9I~7&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAAwNl2O%2BKWgHO4ByvPvlj1R7JjuxzGtuKhT0zR05KUUfnrr4DJB8c5xkrORMAbnEdmjtOmihhzxbcNpxhCfaUnfwyvxzcEYh14pOnzAnH0vdxaZ%2Feb%2B8CAvhkPHk4T6LLO3Td7IsCnVDQYUJeBeAe0OTurlXo7V%2Fy7VNzzy5KSs1Vi2wFVXkP8GwDjs%2BIa3diD3xKWYfXZHpcDTbmWQMdbSM3m%2BK4wEScEHE%2FVaZlh%2BdqlGL56DvHE3K7yYZNy8uKxDg%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR6bOxuufZA

you can look at the guy's listings

https://www.ebay.com/str/turatraders?_trksid=p4429486.m3561.l161211

he currently has 62 of them for sale from $13.99 to  $15.99

I have bought 4 of them up to now they are pretty good movement to practice on as they are pretty simple.  Not as big and very slightly more complex than the ST36 (central second instead of a separate second dial).  They also come working but not working nice as if fresh out of the factory.  

[Terrinecold]

Ok today I put another hmt watch on the operating table. Disassembly went well. I made a video but I am not sure it is worth publishing. 
Sometime next week, likely Tuesday (as other days when I am not working I am climbing) I will clean everything and reassemble the watch.  
This one was in much better shape than the previous. No I crusted dirt on the balance jewel. No indents on the barrel bridge. Too much lubricant in many places but not too bad.  I think I’ll just show the time grapher before state. 
 

One thing. Here is a picture of the main spring in that latest hmt watch:

yes pretty different from the previous one with the same movement no?  I think that was the reason for the low amplitude, the mainspring was completely wrong. 

[Terrinecold]

as a reminder on the previous watch with the same movement.  The one which still had very low amplitude after service (and for which I lost the click spring when trying to analyze that) the mainspring looked like this which surprised me at the time.

[AndyGSi]

I'd say looking at this HMT Pilot spring from another site that your original with the end termination is the correct one.

[Terrinecold]

What do you mean end termination?  I think I am lacking vocabulary.  You mean the spiral or the S shaped one.

From videos on youtube I think the S shaped one is the correct.  I also think the spiral one may have explained the low amplitude both before and after service.

 

Now since my previous post I cleaned and lubricated and reassemble the watch.  I took videos but I am not sure I will publish them as there are lots of dull time as I ended up loosing tiny screws and finding them back.  Anyway it will need edit.  

The problem is that contrary to the previous one the amplitude after service is not "better than before but not satisfying yet".  It is just worst than before.

So I will probably redo the disassembly, cleaning, lubricating and reassembly.

 

Edited July 31, 2024 by Terrinecold

[AndyGSi]

1 hour ago, Terrinecold said:

What do you mean end termination?

The double bit at the end that goes back on itself.

[Terrinecold]

Ah, I think both have that.  But the angle of the picture is hiding it on the S shaped one.

[AndyGSi]

Did you by any chance get the dimensions of both these springs to compare them?

[Terrinecold]

No but I still have the watches and I was planning to redisassemble clean lubricate and reassemble the last one.  I could do both.

What are the dimensions that matter (remember I am a newbie) I assume the length, height and thickness but I am a little unsure on how to measure the length without risking to damage the spring (I guess they are supposed to be springy).

In any case having two completely differently shaped springs on watches with the same movement can't be normal can it?

[AndyGSi]

Yes you need to measure length, height (width) and thickness.

I use a dress makers type of tape to measure the length.

Edit

Just realised from Ranfft that there are 2 versions on the 0231. One starting 1961
and the other 1975 although they are both showing the same mainspring size.

Further Edit

Just found this relation to a 0201.

Edited August 1, 2024 by AndyGSi

[Terrinecold]

The three I have seen so far look like the top one in your pictures. Specifically the two reverse threaded screws don’t have the triple slot. 
 

I just went back to the latest one (the one which was worse off after my ministration but still working) and I disassembled and lubricated the parashock settings. First thing is that I managed two lose the pivot jewel with its spiral spring. One moment it was lightly held in my tweezers the next no more spiral spring and jewel. I canibalized one from movement nb 2. 
With a lot of difficulties I managed to reassemble the shock settings after lubrication. 
The movement is still running but with very low amplitude. 
I decided that before I try to figure out why. I will work on my 4th and last as of now 0231 watch.  
 

Hopefully I’ll do better. 
 

 

[AndyGSi]

The 2 HMT Pilots I've got are also the 1961 versions with a mixture of 1 and 3 slot screws.

I've just realised I've got a 0201 spring in my stocks and wondered if you'd got to measure any of yours yet?

I'll see if it's here at home or work and maybe have to unwind it and see how it looks and measures.

[Terrinecold]

No I haven’t measured mine yet.  I’ll measure one at least today. Morning was mostly spend fiddling with the shock settings. I am not delicate enough with the tweezers yet. For instance turning the cap jewel upside down after putting a drop of oil on it is very difficult for me

[AndyGSi]

54 minutes ago, Terrinecold said:

putting a drop of oil on it is very difficult for me

How are you holding it? Have you tried Rodico?

[Terrinecold]

I have and it is fine for moving it around. 
What is difficult is after I put the oil on it to grab it turn it around and put it face down on the spiral spring and pivot jewel. 
 

Measurement for the spring on the latest movement are

0.17mm 1.40mm and about 34 cm. That last measurement isn’t very precise as I am afraid to damage it

[RichardHarris123]

Have it stuck on the Rodico, oil it, pick up the Rodico and turn it over. 

[Terrinecold]

Ok I’ll try that. Right now everything went into the first wash. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 8/1/2024 at 7:55 PM, Terrinecold said:

I am a little unsure on how to measure the length without risking to damage the spring (I guess they are supposed to be springy).

I use a thin piece of string to follow the spring's shape then measure the string when its pulled straight.

[RichardHarris123]

If I definitely don't want the old spring, I staple one end to some wood, roll it out and staple the end.  Some staples in-between, then measure. 

[Terrinecold]

21 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

If I definitely don't want the old spring, I staple one end to some wood, roll it out and staple the end.  Some staples in-between, then measure. 

Yes but that requires not wanting the spring. 

Here is the new disassembly video. 

everything is washed so I should reassemble tonight after dinner

As I took out the parts from their baskets, one of them was supposed to contain:

ratchet wheel+screw

click + screw

barrel top, bottom, arbour

however one more part came out of the basket  

I don’t know what it is  I wonder if it is a broken spring termination which would have been stuck in the barrel without me noticing.

does anybody have another theory and I am afraid the mainspring won’t be working correctly 

[ManSkirtBrew]

4 hours ago, Terrinecold said:

 I wonder if it is a broken spring termination which would have been stuck in the barrel without me noticing.

Pretty sure that's exactly what it is, and I've had that happen myself. If you really want to use the old spring you'll have to form a new tail--there are threads here on how it's done, but I've never tried it. Otherwise time to find a new one.