Jump to content

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, mbwatch said:

Congratulations on not breaking that unusual reverse thread ratchet wheel screw!

I serviced on of these earlier this week, completed and cased. This morning I wound it and twisted the stem in half somehow. Beware extremely soft metal HMT parts.

I'm surprised about that as I would have expected the stems just to come from Citizen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, AndyGSi said:

I'm surprised about that as I would have expected the stems just to come from Citizen.

Designed by Citizen decades earlier and manufactured on tooling bought from Citizen, but totally independently with Indian materials and local QC standards.

Edited by mbwatch
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Terrinecold said:

Well there is a sad end to the story of my first hmt watch.

I washed all the parts and I started on the reassembly.  I was even recording audio (but forgot to turn on the recording on the camera).

Anyway I realized the camera was not on when I was reassembling the click and the click spring.  That flustered me and as I was moving the click spring into position (not even trying to put it under tension yet, just moving it to its recess) it pinged off my tweezers.  I would have sworn I wasn't holding it tight but I must have.

I have spent an hour looking for it but haven't found it.  I did find a shock spring and the corresponding jewel from a slava movement which I had lost and one seagull blued screw but no click spring. 

Without it I don't see the point of continuing the reassembly as I won't be able to wind the watch.

I have to say that got me a bit frustrated.  I have two more I bought from the same seller supposed to arrive beginning of August.  I think it is the end of my 4th of July watchmaking.  I'll get back to it tomorrow but right now and unless I find that spring I'll be good for nothing.

I can't even go climbing to vent some steam as the gyms are closed for the 4th of July.

 

The word of the day is " BIGMAGNET " its actually 2 words but i combined them to make it look important and very special.    In the same way that  "NEVERENOUGHWATCHES " is important and very special  😆

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This how my master taught me when it comes to progress in watch repairing.

Gents, simple large movement, sweep seconds, calendar, day date calendar, auto, auto sweep, auto calendar, auto day date calendar. The same order with ladies watches. This would also include learning about replacing mainsprings, buttons and stema and crystals. Then complicated gents which would start with gents chronograph watches, the same with ladies. When this was achieved it was high grade movements. Balance staff replacing and making, making stems. Escapement work such as dealing with hairsprings setting pallet stones jewels and all the other things I have missed out were included  in the process of learning.        

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The word of the day is " BIGMAGNET " its actually 2 words but i combined them to make it look important and very special.    In the same way that  "NEVERENOUGHWATCHES " is important and very special  😆

I do have one. A bar magnet meant to hold tools in a workshop. It didn’t help in this case. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This week I had two sessions with one of those hmt watches.  During the first I struggled to remove the movement from the case (currently editing the video).

During the second I disassembled the movement (no special issue.  I also took a video but I haven't started editing it or even putting it on my computer).

I expect to clean the parts and reassemble the movement this WE (today or tomorrow).

 

Here is the video of me having problems removing the movement from the case.  It is also the first time I try to have a video made of a composition of the microscope camera and my phone camera.  Please excuse the poor camera handling (sometimes the phone camera is out of focus.

I decided to try that in part to have sound.

Thank you for the patience of anybody who watches the video and give me feedback.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One point about my commentary in the video which is done at the time of disassembly (not added afterward).  I didn't prepare anything (hence all the hesitations) and the audience is a supposed to be both knowledgeable people from this forum but also some of my friends and family.  So I hesitate between explaining things which will be obvious to all of you and things which will make no sense to my family and friends.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I noticed at 0:25 the balance stops because it touches the movement holder. Be aware of that, because if you tighten down the movement holder and something is contacting the balance, you're going to have a Bad Day.

When you remove the setting lever spring, I've found it's helpful to loosen the screw a couple turns, then lift the arm of the spring off the setting lever to relieve tension on the spring. I do the same thing for installation--get the screw started, then put the spring arm over the post on the setting lever.

Otherwise looks okay to my amateur eyes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I removed it by hand with the intention of cleaning it and putting it back. 
I expected it to be S shaped not spiral shaped as it is not such an old movement. 
Also I know it can be put back with a winder or by hand but can it actually be taken out any other way than by hand. 
 

Also if you watched the disassembly video there were pretty big dents in the barrel bridge which I don’t understand how they could have happened. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Terrinecold said:

I expected an S shaped spring

Yes the expectations of a properly shaped mainspring versus whatever you have. The unfortunate reality of inconsistencies with manufacturing of mainsprings. For instance currently with the American pocket watch mainsprings that I do modern Swiss replacements if they have a slight yellowish color to them I'm finding they all look worse than what you have now. In other words the quality the modern spring is totally sucks versus the old days well hopefully the old days as I have seen some really good spring From the past.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I messed up recording assembly and lubrification of the watch which is where I most hoped for advices. 
Here is a summary though:

as with previous watches I cleaned and lubricated I have had problems with coils of the hairspring sticking together after cleaning. 
Based on advice on YouTube I have been using this

image.thumb.jpg.c57eebc9ebe95cd34fe0e01b78ab2337.jpg

for cleaning balance and pallet fork.  Obviously it is not good. I think I’llbuy some one dip instead. 
 

As for previous case I fixed it with a quick rinse in IPA (a few seconds to avoid shellac melting) and manually unsticking the coils with careful uses of an oiler as a probe. With that out of the way. 
I reassembled the watch. You can see in the disassembly video that the balance jewel and shock assembly was filthy (like if it had been buried in dirt then unburied). It took quite a bit to clean then I lubricated it with a small drop of M 9010. 
After all of this the watch runs but with low amplitude and a high beat error. IMG_0161.thumb.jpeg.979531e4045b5a9ae9e9ea75d725637e.jpeg
 

Not great but a bit better than before:

IMG_0163.thumb.png.59b8aa7cfe63d705cef93e0faa3b006c.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that amplitude needs to be addressed before anything else. 173 is pretty low, even with an old main spring.

If this were me, first thing I would do is remove the balance to re-inspect the balance staff to make sure the pivots are in existence and clean and not scored up.

Next let down the mainspring, remove the pallet fork, verify the train is free spinning when you give the crown a tiny wind. Even better if the escape wheel spins backwards a few turns after it runs down.

Then I'd install the balance without the fork and make sure it spins freely with a gentle puff of air from your squeezy bulb or blower, and keeps oscillating for 30 seconds or thereabout. If it doesn't, first I'd check end-shake on the balance by VERY GENTLY lifting the wheel up to make sure it's not binding (use an oiler instead of tweezers to minimize the possibility of damage). If that's good, next I'd take the jewels out again, re-clean and lubricate, and double-check that they're installed correctly.

Basically a step-by-step process of elimination. It's also good practice 🙂

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Terrinecold said:

as with previous watches I cleaned and lubricated I have had problems with coils of the hairspring sticking together after cleaning. 

Perhaps we should review your cleaning procedure if you're really not getting your watch clean. In other words you shouldn't have sticky hairspring after cleaning.

2 hours ago, Terrinecold said:

I reassembled the watch. You can see in the disassembly video that the balance jewel and shock assembly was filthy (like if it had been buried in dirt then unburied). It took quite a bit to clean then I lubricated it with a small drop of M 9010. 
After all of this the watch runs but with low amplitude and a high beat error.

We really need the assembly video which apparently doesn't exist. But even better than a video is notes like? So you used a very tiny bit of 9010 on the entire watch? One drop for the entire watch. Did you put that one drop on the escapement and I'm assuming you really didn't use one drop so how did you lubricate the watch and the escapement?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@JohnR725 I’ll redo a disassembly and reassembly of the next one (you saw I got two of those watches) including the video. 
I agree with all that was said. @ManSkirtBrewyes it is clear that the amplitude needs addressing. It is better than before but still too low. 
 

Honestly based on how dirty the balance jewel (the one on the cock) was I wonder how it even ran before. 
@AndyGSi yes both before and after pictures are on full wind. And no I didn’t replace the mainspring. I don’t have replacement springs for those watches. Or any replacement part for that matter. 
 

Right after the reassembly I was a bit disappointed by the result but after looking again at the timegrapher pictures from before well it is better than before and also I didn’t real or lose any part. So I’ll take that as progress. 
 

Regarding the cleaning of the balance I have been putting it in the hexane. Left it there for 20mn. Brushed lightly with an artist brush then took it out and dried it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's nothing wrong with replacing a mainspring, but if the spring in the watch is the correct size, even if it's steel and old it will drive the watch to a correct amplitude if the rest of the watch is in proper order.

 

Like, if you have 260 degrees with an old tired looking steel spring, and replace is with a brand new Nivaflex alloy spring of identical dimensions and that's the only change, you might see 10 degrees? more amplitude? Maybe no difference. Folks who service a watch and don't change the spring, see low amplitude, and change it and see a significant difference- 99.9999999% sure they also retouched something else too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Topics

  • Posts

    • That‘s what I thought about too. But then I found that it is cheaper to just get a vintage staking set with punches. In the meantime, I have won a vintage staking set on eBay for €91,-. It is a bit stained and is not complete but has about 100 punches in good condition. With a punch diameter of 4.7mm I can buy a new Bergeon punch from Cousins or Boley if it is needed.
    • Yes @SwissSeiko, most of us here are just hobbyist and some horological products are simply too expensive. For example, cleaning fluids. I think even you find L&R cleaning fluids expensive. But I haven't found anything that shines up parts like #111. So I just bite the bullet and fork up the $$$. Here in Singapore, a bottle of #111 is $180SGD. ($134USD) The Rinse #3 is the same price. Oils like 2ml of Moebius 9010 is around $45SGD. Imagine if you had to fill your car engine with 5 quarts of 9010! I have been using odorless kerosene to preclean my parts before putting them into the #111. The kerosene does such a fantastic job that I may use that in place of the Rinse #3. But I can do without the #111, but now its role is just a brightening agent.  So my cleaning regimen will be kerosene, #111, kerosene and IPA. I see how that works out. I might even re-distill my used IPA to save even more.
    • What works for you, is good enough for me. You and I have great interactions on here, and you've taught me some things! I guess I should approach things with the thought process that most of the users on here are probably doing this as a hobby. I find myself reading some posts and thinking, that's definitely not how I would do it. But I do this for a living, I have overhead costs, bills to pay, taxes, tooling costs ect., and to many on here, it's probably just fine to do it as is necessary to work. So I'm probably a little overzealous when it comes to finishing. You should know, we(for sure at least me) appreciate you. If someone chimes in on my posts, it's usually you, and you're a good chap!
    • Hi. Just curious. Is there an official service center for orient in your area?  I had a problem with my orient mako before. I was regulating the movement and lost focus on what I was doing. I accidentally hit the balance wheel . I had the same issue in finding parts for it so I ended up sending it to the official service center here in the Philippines.
    • I think it was HectorLooi that posted some information at the time that we were discussing what materials to use for cleaning jars in an ultrasonic machine. It was decided that steel jars transmit the cavitation bubbles better than glass or plastic, which was considered the worst as it absorbs their energy. So I've tried a few different cleaning solutions, mostly non-proprietary watch stuff. There is a thread I made last year experimenting , actually I might have tagged it onto someone else's thread,  I can't remember.  Just mirror residue and evaporation rates. 🤔 Elma pro ammoniated,  paraffin,  ligher fuel , Ipa, meths, and I think break cleaner was in there as well. Elma and paraffin have a very slow evaporation rate, probably days. Both have wetting properties and are far reaching, paraffin being very much so, if you're looking for a deep cleaning solution then paraffin soaks well and finds every nook, cranny and crevice. When I use paraffin which is usually if I hand or US pre clean then i place the parts on absorbant tissue  afterwards to soak up the excess then spin them off and use IPA or break cleaner to rinse them off after that a rotary wash with elma and ipa for rinsing . I don't use a US that much, really just if any wheels and pinion leaves are really gunked up, which is when I hang them on the little wire tree. I kind of base how i will clean by how dirty and gunked up the movement is. If it's bad the procedure will follow : soak in paraffin for a couple of hours, peg out plate and bridges and hand clean what I can with a small brush to remove the bulk. Then onto the USM, some parts that can be hung go on the tree like wheels etc,  others that can't go in a slow rotating mesh basket, all in paraffin, the USM  loosens the crap up . Then put them in a rotary basket, spin them in paraffin, spin off the excess, then in elma then 3 rinses in IPA. That's like the full valet, if the movement is really dirty. The parts that don't get that treatment are the balance complete and the pallet fork, which I really like to clean by hand.  Screws and springs I also won't put in a machine, too easily lost, these are easily cleaned by swishing them in a jar of whatever you fancy . If I get a really stubborn sticky hairspring, that will be removed for cleaning separately, brreak fluid is good for that or tetrachloroethylene. Thats one way to get rid of the mother in-law, at 85 yrs old mine is heart attack territory.....🤔....I could accidentally have an envelope with certain contents fall out of my jacket pocket onto her dining room table...accidentally....🤔
×
×
  • Create New...