Suggestions for next steps?

[AndyGSi]

5 hours ago, mbwatch said:

Congratulations on not breaking that unusual reverse thread ratchet wheel screw!

I serviced on of these earlier this week, completed and cased. This morning I wound it and twisted the stem in half somehow. Beware extremely soft metal HMT parts.

I'm surprised about that as I would have expected the stems just to come from Citizen.

[Terrinecold]

The movements are hunt built based on licenses of citizen movement but they changed things. 

[mbwatch]

1 hour ago, AndyGSi said:

I'm surprised about that as I would have expected the stems just to come from Citizen.

Designed by Citizen decades earlier and manufactured on tooling bought from Citizen, but totally independently with Indian materials and local QC standards.

Edited July 4 by mbwatch

[AndyGSi]

Well at least you can get a decent stem as a replacement.

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 hours ago, Terrinecold said:

Well there is a sad end to the story of my first hmt watch.

I washed all the parts and I started on the reassembly.  I was even recording audio (but forgot to turn on the recording on the camera).

Anyway I realized the camera was not on when I was reassembling the click and the click spring.  That flustered me and as I was moving the click spring into position (not even trying to put it under tension yet, just moving it to its recess) it pinged off my tweezers.  I would have sworn I wasn't holding it tight but I must have.

I have spent an hour looking for it but haven't found it.  I did find a shock spring and the corresponding jewel from a slava movement which I had lost and one seagull blued screw but no click spring. 

Without it I don't see the point of continuing the reassembly as I won't be able to wind the watch.

I have to say that got me a bit frustrated.  I have two more I bought from the same seller supposed to arrive beginning of August.  I think it is the end of my 4th of July watchmaking.  I'll get back to it tomorrow but right now and unless I find that spring I'll be good for nothing.

I can't even go climbing to vent some steam as the gyms are closed for the 4th of July.

 

The word of the day is " BIGMAGNET " its actually 2 words but i combined them to make it look important and very special.    In the same way that  "NEVERENOUGHWATCHES " is important and very special 

[RichardHarris123]

Yes, I  have heard many people call you "special". Hehe. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Yes, I  have heard many people call you "special". Hehe. 

Among many other less desirable names Richard, water off a duck's back mate

[oldhippy]

This how my master taught me when it comes to progress in watch repairing.

Gents, simple large movement, sweep seconds, calendar, day date calendar, auto, auto sweep, auto calendar, auto day date calendar. The same order with ladies watches. This would also include learning about replacing mainsprings, buttons and stema and crystals. Then complicated gents which would start with gents chronograph watches, the same with ladies. When this was achieved it was high grade movements. Balance staff replacing and making, making stems. Escapement work such as dealing with hairsprings setting pallet stones jewels and all the other things I have missed out were included  in the process of learning.        

[Terrinecold]

3 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The word of the day is " BIGMAGNET " its actually 2 words but i combined them to make it look important and very special.    In the same way that  "NEVERENOUGHWATCHES " is important and very special 

I do have one. A bar magnet meant to hold tools in a workshop. It didn’t help in this case. 

[Terrinecold]

2 new hmt watches arrived today to fall victim to my ministrations. 

[Terrinecold]

This week I had two sessions with one of those hmt watches.  During the first I struggled to remove the movement from the case (currently editing the video).

During the second I disassembled the movement (no special issue.  I also took a video but I haven't started editing it or even putting it on my computer).

I expect to clean the parts and reassemble the movement this WE (today or tomorrow).

 

Here is the video of me having problems removing the movement from the case.  It is also the first time I try to have a video made of a composition of the microscope camera and my phone camera.  Please excuse the poor camera handling (sometimes the phone camera is out of focus.

I decided to try that in part to have sound.

Thank you for the patience of anybody who watches the video and give me feedback.

 

 

[Terrinecold]

One point about my commentary in the video which is done at the time of disassembly (not added afterward).  I didn't prepare anything (hence all the hesitations) and the audience is a supposed to be both knowledgeable people from this forum but also some of my friends and family.  So I hesitate between explaining things which will be obvious to all of you and things which will make no sense to my family and friends.

 

[Terrinecold]

And here is the disassembly video.  Once more any remark on something I can improve is more than welcom

 

[ManSkirtBrew]

I noticed at 0:25 the balance stops because it touches the movement holder. Be aware of that, because if you tighten down the movement holder and something is contacting the balance, you're going to have a Bad Day.

When you remove the setting lever spring, I've found it's helpful to loosen the screw a couple turns, then lift the arm of the spring off the setting lever to relieve tension on the spring. I do the same thing for installation--get the screw started, then put the spring arm over the post on the setting lever.

Otherwise looks okay to my amateur eyes.

[Terrinecold]

Thanks for the comments I ‘ll pay attention to both points. 

[Terrinecold]

I removed the mainspring from the barrel and was surprised to see one which looked like this

I expected an S shaped spring

[AndyGSi]

Surprised in what way?

Looking at the bend it's got did you removed it by hand with the intention of replacing it with a new one?

[Terrinecold]

I removed it by hand with the intention of cleaning it and putting it back. 
I expected it to be S shaped not spiral shaped as it is not such an old movement. 
Also I know it can be put back with a winder or by hand but can it actually be taken out any other way than by hand. 
 

Also if you watched the disassembly video there were pretty big dents in the barrel bridge which I don’t understand how they could have happened. 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, Terrinecold said:

I expected an S shaped spring

Yes the expectations of a properly shaped mainspring versus whatever you have. The unfortunate reality of inconsistencies with manufacturing of mainsprings. For instance currently with the American pocket watch mainsprings that I do modern Swiss replacements if they have a slight yellowish color to them I'm finding they all look worse than what you have now. In other words the quality the modern spring is totally sucks versus the old days well hopefully the old days as I have seen some really good spring From the past.

 

[Terrinecold]

Well I messed up recording assembly and lubrification of the watch which is where I most hoped for advices. 
Here is a summary though:

as with previous watches I cleaned and lubricated I have had problems with coils of the hairspring sticking together after cleaning. 
Based on advice on YouTube I have been using this

for cleaning balance and pallet fork.  Obviously it is not good. I think I’llbuy some one dip instead. 
 

As for previous case I fixed it with a quick rinse in IPA (a few seconds to avoid shellac melting) and manually unsticking the coils with careful uses of an oiler as a probe. With that out of the way. 
I reassembled the watch. You can see in the disassembly video that the balance jewel and shock assembly was filthy (like if it had been buried in dirt then unburied). It took quite a bit to clean then I lubricated it with a small drop of M 9010. 
After all of this the watch runs but with low amplitude and a high beat error. 
 

Not great but a bit better than before:

[ManSkirtBrew]

I think that amplitude needs to be addressed before anything else. 173 is pretty low, even with an old main spring.

If this were me, first thing I would do is remove the balance to re-inspect the balance staff to make sure the pivots are in existence and clean and not scored up.

Next let down the mainspring, remove the pallet fork, verify the train is free spinning when you give the crown a tiny wind. Even better if the escape wheel spins backwards a few turns after it runs down.

Then I'd install the balance without the fork and make sure it spins freely with a gentle puff of air from your squeezy bulb or blower, and keeps oscillating for 30 seconds or thereabout. If it doesn't, first I'd check end-shake on the balance by VERY GENTLY lifting the wheel up to make sure it's not binding (use an oiler instead of tweezers to minimize the possibility of damage). If that's good, next I'd take the jewels out again, re-clean and lubricate, and double-check that they're installed correctly.

Basically a step-by-step process of elimination. It's also good practice

[AndyGSi]

Is that on a full wind and did you replace the spring?

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, Terrinecold said:

as with previous watches I cleaned and lubricated I have had problems with coils of the hairspring sticking together after cleaning. 

Perhaps we should review your cleaning procedure if you're really not getting your watch clean. In other words you shouldn't have sticky hairspring after cleaning.

2 hours ago, Terrinecold said:

I reassembled the watch. You can see in the disassembly video that the balance jewel and shock assembly was filthy (like if it had been buried in dirt then unburied). It took quite a bit to clean then I lubricated it with a small drop of M 9010. 
After all of this the watch runs but with low amplitude and a high beat error.

We really need the assembly video which apparently doesn't exist. But even better than a video is notes like? So you used a very tiny bit of 9010 on the entire watch? One drop for the entire watch. Did you put that one drop on the escapement and I'm assuming you really didn't use one drop so how did you lubricate the watch and the escapement?

 

 

[Terrinecold]

@JohnR725 I’ll redo a disassembly and reassembly of the next one (you saw I got two of those watches) including the video. 
I agree with all that was said. @ManSkirtBrewyes it is clear that the amplitude needs addressing. It is better than before but still too low. 
 

Honestly based on how dirty the balance jewel (the one on the cock) was I wonder how it even ran before. 
@AndyGSi yes both before and after pictures are on full wind. And no I didn’t replace the mainspring. I don’t have replacement springs for those watches. Or any replacement part for that matter. 
 

Right after the reassembly I was a bit disappointed by the result but after looking again at the timegrapher pictures from before well it is better than before and also I didn’t real or lose any part. So I’ll take that as progress. 
 

Regarding the cleaning of the balance I have been putting it in the hexane. Left it there for 20mn. Brushed lightly with an artist brush then took it out and dried it. 

[nickelsilver]

There's nothing wrong with replacing a mainspring, but if the spring in the watch is the correct size, even if it's steel and old it will drive the watch to a correct amplitude if the rest of the watch is in proper order.

 

Like, if you have 260 degrees with an old tired looking steel spring, and replace is with a brand new Nivaflex alloy spring of identical dimensions and that's the only change, you might see 10 degrees? more amplitude? Maybe no difference. Folks who service a watch and don't change the spring, see low amplitude, and change it and see a significant difference- 99.9999999% sure they also retouched something else too.