Suggestions for next steps?

[Knebo]

15 minutes ago, Terrinecold said:

I cleaned all the parts except balance assembly and pallet fork

15 minutes ago, Terrinecold said:

have not taken apart and oiled the shock protection and cap jewels

Hi @Terrinecold,

We may have missed that info above, but as you can see that's pretty much the most fundamental thing to do. Great lesson learnt, I suppose

To be clear, the timegrapher results at the end your last post are also after lubricating balance jewels and pallet fork, right?

Cheers

[Terrinecold]

7 hours ago, Knebo said:

Hi @Terrinecold,

We may have missed that info above, but as you can see that's pretty much the most fundamental thing to do. Great lesson learnt, I suppose

To be clear, the timegrapher results at the end your last post are also after lubricating balance jewels and pallet fork, right?

Cheers

First I have lubricated the pallet fork pallets/escape wheel teeth.  I did not lubricate the pallet fork pivot jewel as I am pretty sure it is considered to be a no no.

No they are only after fixing the coils of the hairspring sticking to each other after the first wash.  After a dip in IPA and most important making sure it was completely dry so no sticking due to capillarity the result is the one I showed.

By the way my (probably flawed) understanding was that lack of lubrication for the balance jewel would show up more after a usage with too much wear and possibly immediately with too low amplitude but wouldn't show up with crazy reading like I have seen.

 

 

[Knebo]

20 minutes ago, Terrinecold said:

I did not lubricate the pallet fork pivot jewel as I am pretty sure it is considered to be a no no.

Absolutely correct. 

 

21 minutes ago, Terrinecold said:

most important making sure it was completely dry so no sticking due to capillarity the result is the one I showed

Yes. If (too much) oil is dissolved in the cleaning fluid and the solvent/IPA then evaporates, it can leave a thin and surprisingly sticky oil residue everywhere. And hairspring coils are very sensitive to that. I learnt this the hard way, too. 

 

[Terrinecold]

14 hours ago, Knebo said:

Yes. If (too much) oil is dissolved in the cleaning fluid and the solvent/IPA then evaporates, it can leave a thin and surprisingly sticky oil residue everywhere. And hairspring coils are very sensitive to that. I learnt this the hard way, too. 

Yes that was the problem. The sticky coils. I have it on video too. I plan to do the editing and video uploading this Weekend (today is work + rock climbing not much time for watchmaking)

[durant7]

Excellent reading as I have a ST36 coming my way for practice purposes.  I am keen to read what the experts say re your balance cleaning.  I too read Hexane is the lower cost solution to one dip.  And, I read IPA and shellac, ok if you make it a brief exposure.  I am unclear why the hexane left you with touching hair spring?

And excellent work of trouble shooting and reassembly.  Is your current timegrapher result better, same or worse than when you first received it?

[JohnR725]

One of the things to try to remember is learning is usually slow. There's nothing wrong with taking your shiny new Chinese clone and just disassembling it looking at all the parts. Putting it back together again and then repeating the process. Have you ever wondered why people go to schools in general are really fast? What give think they do all day long there practicing usually on the same watches over and over and over again practicing new skills as they go on. But typically and groups like this you disassemble at one time you clean it yet oil let you put it back together or whatever order you do those things in and then you want to move on and you really should practice on the same watch for while. Until you get really really good at it.

 

[Terrinecold]

@JohnR725 indeed that is understood and what I am trying to do.  I am still editing (cutting off part where nothing happens and adding text) the reassembly video then I'll post it for comment on what I should improve or what I am doing fine.

@durant7 thank you very much.  I am a beginner and not an expert on timegrapher, I'll post the before and after.  I think the after is a tiny bit better. Because the amplitude is better.  You'll see that the Rate is also better but that is because I actually spent time regulating it.  I lost a lot of time trying to do that using the swan neck regulator but the truth is that the one on my ST36 is not really working for 2 reasons (if I understand that mechanism correctly): 1 the spring is not the right shape, it should always be pushing against the extension of the regulator, 2) the screw is not the right length, by screwing it in you should be able to move the regulator way more.  I spent quite some time fiddling with it (for someone inexperienced like me, screwing the screw which is on the side is difficult as it is small and I can't see the slot in the microscope due to its position, I should use a loupe but I am not good with those).  Then I gave up and moved the regulator directly.

Before working on the movement 2 orientations

After  only one orientation because but the other was similar just didn’t take a picture

Edited June 22 by Terrinecold
added picture of the non functioning (decorative) swan neck

[Terrinecold]

Here is the promised reassembly video.

Like the first one I don't have sound but I have put some text explaining what I am doing (not for the readers of this forum but for my family and friends with whom I'll share it to try to explain my weird new hobby).

All criticism is welcome.

There is one thing which surprised me a lot as I was doing the lubrication trying to follow the spec sheet.  I was expecting to put some grease on a number of keyless work parts (like on the yoke, on the stem square section, etc...) but most of those place were recommending oil so I did that but I would appreciate any opinion on where to  put grease vs oil.

I also plan to oil the shock system and cap jewel this evening and I'll try to video it to.

 

[JohnR725]

4 minutes ago, Terrinecold said:

There is one thing which surprised me a lot as I was doing the lubrication trying to follow the spec sheet.  I was expecting to put some grease on a number of keyless work parts (like on the yoke, on the stem square section, etc...) but most of those place were recommending oil so I did that but I would appreciate any opinion on where to  put grease vs oil.

One of the problems with followingtech sheets for lubrication isyou have to follow them exactly. Plus they actually have to have all of the instructions in the spec sheet which often times they do not. Which means if you using oil in a location where grease would be preferred you're supposed to use epilam to prevent it from running away.

Oh and if you really want to get confused over lubrication look at multiple generations of Technical documentation specifying lubrication and will find it becomes quite confusing because in the past the use really really really thin oil. At least now they're up to something heavier but you still need to use epilam.

[Terrinecold]

Good point.  And I have not bought epilam or the famously expensive related bottle yet.

So your advice for next time I take appart and clean and reassemble this movement (either tomorrow or next week) would be to use oil on rotating parts and grease on sliding part as I have seen being advised in various videos?

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, Terrinecold said:

o your advice for next time I take appart and clean and reassemble this movement (either tomorrow or next week) would be to use oil on rotating parts and grease on sliding part as I have seen being advised in various videos?

yes that's typically what I do although I will use grease on things like barrel arbor's things with high pressure that revolve slowly.

yes if you look at enough tech sheets over time you'll find lots of very peculiar things. For instance I'm attaching a tech sheet notice they're using grease on the keyless parts? Then for oil for everything else using my favorite oil 9020 including on the balance jewels. I wonder what they know that the rest of the Swiss do not? Then zero indication of using epilam although one of the problems with epilam is a lot of times the watch companies did use it in the past and they just didn't put it in the tech sheets. Although sometimes they had been a lot of the companies do this the supplemental seeds spell out all the details and the information is never found in the tech sheet itself. Which means even if you fall with the tech sheet says he may not be doing the supplemental stuff does not referenced at all in the tech sheet.

 

12p.pdf

[Terrinecold]

Yes well the 6497 spec sheet did mention epilam but I don’t have either the product or the bottle for it. 
 

[Terrinecold]

Today at lunch break I took the ST36 appart again this time also taking appart the mainspring (and launching the arbour into the room but I found it. )  

Tomorrow is cleaning again and reassembly again  

 

[Terrinecold]

during the week I did put back the movement together.  I had similar "sticky" hairspring issues as last time and this time even after fixing them the watch runs with very low amplitude (170) so something else may be wrong.  

I'll see if the next round of disassembly cleaning and reassembly will help.

What I did today was practicing lubricating the balance jewels.  But for that I didn't start with my working ST36 but rather with the first one I ordered which if you remember has had the setting lever screw broken and the hairspring tangled and warped.

I managed to oil both cap jewels, there were a few close call when the shock system spring was lost even though he didn't fly away (it had in fact fallen into the movement).  As well as when after oiling the lower cap jewel when I was moving the whole thing to the mainplate before putting it back, by the time I was under the microscope again the jewel and chaton where nowhere to be seen.  turned out they had fallen through a hole in the mainplate and were now stuck between mainplate and escape wheel.  So a bit of disassembly later I had it back and I reset the spring.

As long as I had that movement out though I did two more things, I replaced the setting lever and setting lever screws with 6497 parts I got from ebay.  I also detached the hairspring from the etachron regulator and manage to untangle it.  It is still very much warped in both directions and I don't know when I'll have the confidence to try again to repair it.

In any case I hope I am slowly improving.

PS:

I have videos of my struggles with the cap jewels and shock spring I may end up editing them and posting them if anybody is interested in giving feeback

[Terrinecold]

Received from eBay an hmt watch the movement should be almost as simple as the ST36 but smaller so “level up “ if you want so I plan to practice on this one too. 
The seller was supposed to send a couple more which I guess are on the way too bad they weren’t in the same packaged. 
I have to say for $14 I expected it to be in worst shape. 

[Terrinecold]

Timegrapher before opening the watch dial up

I couldn’t get good readings on the sideway positions

I don’t see any gaskets

[Terrinecold]

I started disassembly of the hmt movement.

I did record it and as previously if anybody could take a look and wants to give me advice on what I need to improve on or what I am doing correctly please do so (that is why I post after all).

Also be warned that I have a lot of progress to make with the recording through the microscope, in particular when editing I noticed that often the video is not showing what I expected as I am watching through the oculars and there is an offset.  It is pretty obvious but I should make sure all the time that things are correctly showing in the monitor.

One thing I changed compared to previous videos is that I recorded some audio.  I used my phone to record it and then in kdenlive I synced it with the video.  Somehow I missed the last minute of audio. I am also not used to recording voice so the commentary may not be very interesting...

 

 

[AndyGSi]

Just watched the first few minutes and the thing that jumped out was you need
to reinsert the stem and stop the hands before trying to remove them.

[Terrinecold]

Thanks, I agree I should have put it back as it was needed a bit later to remove the power.

Regarding stopping the hand, this is a non hacking movement so the stem being inserted wouldn't have helped I think.  

 

 

[mbwatch]

Congratulations on not breaking that unusual reverse thread ratchet wheel screw!

I serviced on of these earlier this week, completed and cased. This morning I wound it and twisted the stem in half somehow. Beware extremely soft metal HMT parts.

[AndyGSi]

39 minutes ago, Terrinecold said:

Thanks, I agree I should have put it back as it was needed a bit later to remove the power.

Regarding stopping the hand, this is a non hacking movement so the stem being inserted wouldn't have helped I think.  

 

 

If that's the case then I'd have let the power down first and possibly removed the balance too.

I think you already realised that the next time you need to remove the crown wheel and ratchet before looking at the gear train.

Overall I think you've created a very good video and it's all a learning curve.

[Terrinecold]

After the video I managed to unstick the crown wheel ring. I used a scalpel then a screwdriver to lever it off its post. It was so stuck at one point I thought it wasn’t supposed to come separated. 
Since I also washed the parts and dried them. I am about to start the reassembly 

I have to say I am a bit worried about the balance spring

[JohnR725]

3 hours ago, Terrinecold said:

this is a non hacking movement so the stem being inserted wouldn't have helped I think.  

if you pull the stem out it goes into a mode where you can rotate the hands and put them in a specific place like on top of each other it makes it a lot easier when removing the hands.

then yes it's always nice to put the stamina crown or the stem back in the watch whenever you're handling it as it gives you something to hold onto or for letting the power off or setting the hands it's just nice to have something to hold.

 

 

 

 

[AndyGSi]

34 minutes ago, Terrinecold said:

I have to say I am a bit worried about the balance spring

The setting level does look off on the spring but I think all you can do is to refit it
and see how it goes as a replacement will cost the same as it cost for the watch.

Edit

Just had a look at your original photo and trying to work out if the balance cock is original or if it's has been butchered?

Edited July 4 by AndyGSi

[Terrinecold]

Well there is a sad end to the story of my first hmt watch.

I washed all the parts and I started on the reassembly.  I was even recording audio (but forgot to turn on the recording on the camera).

Anyway I realized the camera was not on when I was reassembling the click and the click spring.  That flustered me and as I was moving the click spring into position (not even trying to put it under tension yet, just moving it to its recess) it pinged off my tweezers.  I would have sworn I wasn't holding it tight but I must have.

I have spent an hour looking for it but haven't found it.  I did find a shock spring and the corresponding jewel from a slava movement which I had lost and one seagull blued screw but no click spring. 

Without it I don't see the point of continuing the reassembly as I won't be able to wind the watch.

I have to say that got me a bit frustrated.  I have two more I bought from the same seller supposed to arrive beginning of August.  I think it is the end of my 4th of July watchmaking.  I'll get back to it tomorrow but right now and unless I find that spring I'll be good for nothing.

I can't even go climbing to vent some steam as the gyms are closed for the 4th of July.