hp9010 on 3rd wheel with shock settings.

[Birbdad]

So i took a break from watchmaking because I was out of watches to service but i'm back at it and have a few projects so i figured i'd bone up on my lubrication and rewatch a few useful vids. I was watching This fantastic vid which was super helpful when I was getting started. 

And I realized when he said to use hp1300 on the 3rd wheel that I never do and I wondered how i got into that habit and realized it's because i've only worked on the 7XXX series movements and EVERY video uses 9010 on this wheel. Unless you have a second auto oiler filled with hp1300 for just this one shock setting on the train bridge, you would sorta have to use 9010 as setting those settings wet and getting a good oil bubble is virtually impossible. I dont' know anybody that doesn't use their auto oiler for those. I wondered how i got into the habit of using 9010 on that wheel for that movement and realized our very own mark does the same in this timestamp.

So i guess i'm just curious because outside of this movement, i don't see anybody literally anywhere recommending or putting 9010 on the 3rd wheel instead of hp1300. The spec sheet recommends.....grease for the bottom jewel which is absurd and doesn't specify any lubrication for the top. I'm wondering if there's any particular reason this is done on this specific movement other than just out of convenience for the reason i mentioned? Could this have detrimental effects?

[Neverenoughwatches]

29 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

So i took a break from watchmaking because I was out of watches to service but i'm back at it and have a few projects so i figured i'd bone up on my lubrication and rewatch a few useful vids. I was watching This fantastic vid which was super helpful when I was getting started. 

And I realized when he said to use hp1300 on the 3rd wheel that I never do and I wondered how i got into that habit and realized it's because i've only worked on the 7XXX series movements and EVERY video uses 9010 on this wheel. Unless you have a second auto oiler filled with hp1300 for just this one shock setting on the train bridge, you would sorta have to use 9010 as setting those settings wet and getting a good oil bubble is virtually impossible. I dont' know anybody that doesn't use their auto oiler for those. I wondered how i got into the habit of using 9010 on that wheel for that movement and realized our very own mark does the same in this timestamp.

So i guess i'm just curious because outside of this movement, i don't see anybody literally anywhere recommending or putting 9010 on the 3rd wheel instead of hp1300. The spec sheet recommends.....grease for the bottom jewel which is absurd and doesn't specify any lubrication for the top. I'm wondering if there's any particular reason this is done on this specific movement other than just out of convenience for the reason i mentioned? Could this have detrimental effects?

Big jump from hp 1300 to 9010, the torque at the wheels wont jump so rapidly in one go. Wouldn't an oil inbetween be more appropriate ?

[Birbdad]

51 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Big jump from hp 1300 to 9010, the torque at the wheels wont jump so rapidly in one go. Wouldn't an oil inbetween be more appropriate ?

Ask mark, he would know better than me. Him and basically every other watchmaker on youtube who works on the 7s26 uses 9010 on the 3rd wheel for whatever reason, i assume it's because of those horrible shock settings. 

That said when i brought this up at the other place i hang out with watchmakers they told me a trick to oil those settings without the auto oiler. I'm gonna use hp1300 from now on if it works! 

I was REAL curious though because yeah, that IS a big jump.

[Neverenoughwatches]

20 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Ask mark, he would know better than me. Him and basically every other watchmaker on youtube who works on the 7s26 uses 9010 on the 3rd wheel for whatever reason, i assume it's because of those horrible shock settings. 

That said when i brought this up at the other place i hang out with watchmakers they told me a trick to oil those settings without the auto oiler. I'm gonna use hp1300 from now on if it works! 

I was REAL curious though because yeah, that IS a big jump.

I can undestand 9010 on a 3rd wheel pivot but not hp1300, i use 9020 as a something inbetween.

[Birbdad]

3 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I can undestand 9010 on a 3rd wheel pivot but not hp1300, i use 9020 as a something inbetween.

Oh that's weird. basically i can't find a single manual of modern horology theory or professional watchmaker that doesn't use 1300 on the 3rd wheel. All the professionals i know are baffled why mark and so many others use 9010 on it in this one specific movement.

Somebody in another thread here that came up when i was looking for answers on this mentioned he also uses 9010 in an eta 2842 (I think.) video.

Edited February 5 by Birbdad

[Neverenoughwatches]

31 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Ask mark, he would know better than me. Him and basically every other watchmaker on youtube who works on the 7s26 uses 9010 on the 3rd wheel for whatever reason, i assume it's because of those horrible shock settings. 

That said when i brought this up at the other place i hang out with watchmakers they told me a trick to oil those settings without the auto oiler. I'm gonna use hp1300 from now on if it works! 

I was REAL curious though because yeah, that IS a big jump.

I would be inclined to follow Mark with 9010. Alex in the video suggests hp1300. I dont ever remember Mark slipping up with advice,  i know Alex has a few times.

5 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

Oh that's weird. basically i can't find a single manual of modern horology theory or professional watchmaker that doesn't use 1300 on the 3rd wheel. 

What can i say 1300 seems too heavy to me, if i had hp500 that would suit me.  My 1300 stops at the centre wheel, maybe thats just me then. 

Edited February 5 by Neverenoughwatches

[Birbdad]

1 minute ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I would be inclined to follow Mark with 9010. Alex in the video suggests hp1300. I dont ever remember Mark slipping up with advice,  i know Alex has a few times.

So i've sorta zeroed in on a few watchmakers who have been doing this for ages that i chose to learn from and mark was one of them. 
the other is the guy i posted in my original post. 

So the GENERAL rule of modern lubrication is: 

HIgh speed low torqe wheels get 9010
Escape wheel
fourth wheel.

Low speed high torque wheels get hp1300:
Barrel
Second wheel/center wheel
Third wheel. 

This is what's taught in watchmaking schools, this is what's in eta service sheets. 

I'm going to try and use hp1300 on my next service on the 3rd wheel and i'll report the results! In fact i'm gonna probably redo the service i just did and try it and i'll have a direct before and after comparison so i'll report back with that. Till then i'm curious how many other people use 9010 on the third wheel instead of hp1300.

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 minutes ago, Birbdad said:

So i've sorta zeroed in on a few watchmakers who have been doing this for ages that i chose to learn from and mark was one of them. 
the other is the guy i posted in my original post. 

So the GENERAL rule of modern lubrication is: 

HIgh speed low torqe wheels get 9010
Escape wheel
fourth wheel.

Low speed high torque wheels get hp1300:
Barrel
Second wheel/center wheel
Third wheel. 

This is what's taught in watchmaking schools, this is what's in eta service sheets. 

I'm going to try and use hp1300 on my next service on the 3rd wheel and i'll report the results! In fact i'm gonna probably redo the service i just did and try it and i'll have a direct before and after comparison so i'll report back with that. Till then i'm curious how many other people use 9010 on the third wheel instead of hp1300.

I see it as a big difference between a center wheel arbor that has a lot to deal with and a 3rd wheel pivot. A lot of old watches have no tech sheets, with wear and tear friction can be high, i dont see why i would add to that with a high viscosity oil. Fair enough if there is a lot of slop in a jewel hole it might compensate for that short term, but thats really a repair that needs attending to. Again just my thoughts, I'm happy to change my idea if a valid reason comes my way. 

[CYCLOPS]

Just goes to show different movements like ultra-fine to pockets have different specs, friction levels, etc. plus all of us see things differently when it comes to the use of grease or oil on the parts when it comes to friction....

[Neverenoughwatches]

10 hours ago, CYCLOPS said:

Just goes to show different movements like ultra-fine to pockets have different specs, friction levels, etc. plus all of us see things differently when it comes to the use of grease or oil on the parts when it comes to friction....

Still the basics apply, the size of the part, torque and pressues within its bearings is a big factor, Alex says that lubrication has 2 purposes, to reduce friction and to reduce wear. Those are closely related, if you reduce friction things are going to move more freely requiring less effort to move them ( energy sparing ) and then the reduction of wear is an added bonus as part of that reduced friction ( two birds with one stone ) .The oil itself creates a bearing surface at a molecular level to keep moving parts seperated. Higher pressure heavy duty parts like the barrel and center wheel arbors need thicker viscosity oils that will cope with the higher shearing forces involved maintaining their viscosity for longer periods of time compared to thinner oils. Smaller lower torque faster moving wheels put less pressure demand on lower viscosity lubrication that have to balance with now being thin enough NOT to add molecular friction ( damping effect from slower moving less free flowing oil ) that can rob energy. The wheels coming down the train towards the balance decrease in size, torque and pressure in their bearings. If we could all afford to buy 4 or 5 oils of different viscosity, one for each wheel then that might be ideal. Maybe more if we include pocket watches and ladies watches. But instead we non professionals compromise and use 2 or maybe 3 oils at most in the train . Where one oil might be a little too thick and another might be a little too thin. Figuring out where we change from thick to thin is how we differ. I have an idea where i think it is and what i want to do, someone else might have a completely different idea. On top of that fingers are crossed that the oil stays where it is put. No wonder lubrication is such a controversial subject.

[JohnR725]

On 2/5/2024 at 6:43 AM, Birbdad said:

9010 on the 3rd wheel for whatever reason, i assume it's because of those horrible shock settings. 

traditionally anything that has a End stone people like to use 9010. It's just what they like to do.

On 2/5/2024 at 7:13 AM, Birbdad said:

So the GENERAL rule of modern lubrication is: 

HIgh speed low torqe wheels get 9010
Escape wheel
fourth wheel.

Low speed high torque wheels get hp1300:
Barrel
Second wheel/center wheel
Third wheel. 

This is what's taught in watchmaking schools, this is what's in eta service sheets. 

let's see if we take this out of order when I was in watchmaking school  we use 9020 for the entire gear train. With 9010 on the balance. I've since abandon the 9010 all together and I used use 9020 is my light oil. The only place I use the HP 1300 is on the center wheel anything like the barrel arbor I use 9504. Then there other tech sheets out there I even found one that agrees with my used for 9020 on the balance jewels and basically everything else.

On 2/5/2024 at 7:26 AM, Neverenoughwatches said:

i dont see why i would add to that with a high viscosity oil.

you should try lubricating a watch with a high viscosity oil and see what happens to your amplitude you might be in for a surprise. things aren't always as they seem to be.

 

On 2/5/2024 at 5:17 AM, Birbdad said:

So i guess i'm just curious because outside of this movement, i don't see anybody literally anywhere recommending or putting 9010 on the 3rd wheel instead of hp1300. The spec sheet recommends.....grease for the bottom jewel which is absurd and doesn't specify any lubrication for the top. I'm wondering if there's any particular reason this is done on this specific movement other than just out of convenience for the reason i mentioned? Could this have detrimental effects?

I'm not sure I'm looking at the same spec sheets you are exactly which caliber of Seiko are looking out for the third wheel? Then Seiko does specify a grease on some of their high frequency watches and it's covered in one of their lubrication sheets. and the reason they put on the bottom were on the pivot is because of course grease does not migrate like oil what it

 

[Birbdad]

11 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

you should try lubricating a watch with a high viscosity oil and see what happens to your amplitude you might be in for a surprise. things aren't always as they seem to be.

 

So I just for the first time did lubricate the 3rd wheel with hp1300. It could be the watch as it's a customer's watch that had been banged around so much the hairspring was totally destroyed. I'm not sure if it's me deviating from my normal 9010 on the 3rd wheel or the watch itself but this is the lowest amplitude i've ever had with a 7s26 even though it has a brand new barrel complete. Just something interesting i'm going to monitor in the future. The amplitude only dipped by about 5 to 7 degrees and is still at a healthy high 260's but was still interesting to see. I typically get 275 to 280 on the 7s26 using 9010 on the 3rd wheel. I think the belief in hp1300 being a good idea is less for maximizing amplitude and more for minimizing wear to the watch. 

 

11 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

I'm not sure I'm looking at the same spec sheets you are exactly which caliber of Seiko are looking out for the third wheel? Then Seiko does specify a grease on some of their high frequency watches and it's covered in one of their lubrication sheets. and the reason they put on the bottom were on the pivot is because of course grease does not migrate like oil what it

 

When i get up i can take screenshots of all the different 7s26 service manuals. Iv'e seen three conflicting ones i'm pretty sure. 

1. Shows 9010 on the shock setting stone and 1300 equivalent on the bottom jewel for the 3rd wheel.

2. One shows no lubricant at all on the shock settings and heavy keyless works grease on the bottom jewel. Also worth noting this spec sheet calls both the 3rd and 4th wheel the 3rd wheel haha. I've found a lot of typos and mistakes in seiko spec sheets.

3. I'm pretty sure i have one that shows 9010 for both shock settings and lower jewels for the escape and 3rd wheel but i might be mistaken on that.

Edited February 19 by Birbdad