Elgin pocket 292

[Murks]

I’m working on a 18S Elgin pocket watch. I’ve cleaned and have started to reassemble. Before The barrel and center wheel and third wheel could spin fine together. NOW A MADE IT WORSE WITH THE STAKING TOOL, it seems to get stuck. Sometimes it rotates a little (not a full revolution), other times it doesn’t spin at all. I’ve looked at both wheels under a microscope and all the teeth and pinions look fine.  Anyone have any suggestions of anything else to try or look at?

Edited October 25, 2023 by Murks

[oldhippy]

What did you do when using the staking tool?

[Murks]

notice a made deeper sink on the train bridge plate on the third wheel and center wheel a can't remember exactly what caused me to do that in the first place 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, Murks said:

I’m working on a 18S Elgin pocket watch. I’ve cleaned and have started to reassemble. Before The barrel and center wheel and third wheel could spin fine together. NOW A MADE IT WORSE WITH THE STAKING TOOL, it seems to get stuck. Sometimes it rotates a little (not a full revolution), other times it doesn’t spin at all. I’ve looked at both wheels under a microscope and all the teeth and pinions look fine.  Anyone have any suggestions of anything else to try or look at?

If the wheels were moving fine together, why did you use a staking tool ? What did you do with the staking tool ?

[Murks]

something had caused the third wheel to stop spinning  a just assumed something to do with the end shake so a started using the staking tool on both the center bridge and whird wheel bridge ended up making a deep sink on the bridge it self now a don't know how to resolve it to a used different staking tool a was not sure what staking is best to use.

I used a lot of different punches but now am using a doom punch 

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 minutes ago, Murks said:

notice a made deeper sink on the train bridge plate on the third wheel and center wheel a can't remember exactly what caused me to do that in the first place 

The center wheel bush looks damaged and also one of the plate holes. If the center bush was worn it should have been changed rather than try to reduce its hole size. The staking tool is not meant to be used in conjunction with a sledge hammer lol

4 minutes ago, Murks said:

something had caused the third wheel to stop spinning  a just assumed something to do with the end shake so a started using the staking tool on both the center bridge and whird wheel bridge ended up making a deep sink on the bridge it self now a don't know how to resolve it to a used different staking tool a was not sure what staking is best to use.

I used a lot of different punches but now am using a doom punch 

Haha Murks you crack me up, you certainly have used the doom punch. 

20 minutes ago, Murks said:

notice a made deeper sink on the train bridge plate on the third wheel and center wheel a can't remember exactly what caused me to do that in the first place 

Murks can i suggest you take a good clear zoomed in picture of that bridge underside. To see any damage to center wheel bush and pivot hole you were working on. 

[Murks]

Lol people do say this a make the laugh but how do a sort this whats my option is it a new bridge and what type puncher should a be using ?

[Neverenoughwatches]

28 minutes ago, Murks said:

Lol people do say this a make the laugh but how do a sort this whats my option is it a new bridge and what type puncher should a be using ?

Close pictures first Murks so we can see the extent of any damage, the stake you should have used to start with would have been a domed stake or round nosed stake. That was suggested in another thread you posted, i can only assume you tried a different one first. But hey you've invented the stake of DOOM, what can i say about that but .  It looks like the center is a bush, so that wasn't really something to use a stake on to close up.  The only advise i can give you for future is next time you go to the gym, ease up on the bicep workout buddy, using the staking tool should be a light and steady approach . To repair this is probably beyond any advice i can give you but Old hippy might have a thing or two to say about that and probably your staking attempts . Lets see a good close up of the bridge first and then go from there fella. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[Murks]

The staking tool is not meant to be used in conjunction with a sledge hammer thanks for this advice not many have told me this what can I use instead with the staking tool? if not the sledge hammer.

[Waggy]

1 minute ago, Murks said:

what can I use instead with the staking tool? if not the sledge hammer.

[Murks]

This it closer picture of the train bridge

19 minutes ago, Waggy said:

You just put up a image with out saying the name the tool?

[Waggy]

8 minutes ago, Murks said:

You just put up a image with out saying the name the tool?

I'm sure Bergeon will sell it to you for a very low price

[Murks]

Let me send a picture of the one a use is this OK?

Edited October 25, 2023 by Murks

[Neverenoughwatches]

35 minutes ago, Murks said:

The staking tool is not meant to be used in conjunction with a sledge hammer thanks for this advice not many have told me this what can I use instead with the staking tool? if not the sledge hammer.

Ok so we know not to use the stake of Doom and definitely not a sledge hammer or a lump hammer or a claw hammer, not even something as small as a joiner's pin hammer. Im not home right now but i will show you what i have, its a very small hammer . And Waggy , yes you're taking the p--s now . And two of us taking the p--s might be more than murks can handle

4 minutes ago, Murks said:

Let me send a picture of the one a use is this OK?

Yes maybe, but invisible hammers tend to have the problem of finding them

Edited October 25, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[Waggy]

4 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

And two of us taking the p--s might be more than murks can handle

Yes, apologies, just trying to have a bit of fun, but I agree not very useful for @Murks I'll try to be sensible now

 

6 minutes ago, Murks said:

This is similar to the one I use also, but even using this the taps need to be very light, just let the hammer fall from 4 to 5 cm using only its own weight, and just two or three taps then check. It can take time, but its like a hair cut, they can always cut more off but can't cut more on.

Also if its a bushing it may be better to push it out out and use a new one if the damage is too great to repair using a staking tool.

[Neverenoughwatches]

54 minutes ago, Murks said:

This it closer picture of the train bridge

You just put up a image with out saying the name the tool?

Ok so the hole in red looks to be very worn, oval in shape, the hole in blue looks quite damaged that i cants see a hole. The center bush i cant really tell. A good way to take close pictures is to use a loupe at the end of your camera phone lens, that way you aren't losing detail when zooming in with just your phone. Phones have digital magification which is crap for close ups.

30 minutes ago, Waggy said:

Yes, apologies, just trying to have a bit of fun, but I agree not very useful for @Murks I'll try to be sensible now

 

He already has one idiot helping him so back off buddy

Edited October 25, 2023 by Neverenoughwatches

[Murks]

Can you let me know when your home what hammer that you use 

[Neverenoughwatches]

22 minutes ago, Murks said:

Can you let me know when your home what hammer that you use 

Will do.

[oldhippy]

What a mess. They need to be re-bushed and make sure they are the correct depth. Never ever just get a hammer and hit it with out thinking, if you are not sure ask on here and provide good clear photos. 

[Murks]

Oldhippy what type stake should a use when rebushing hole Is the doom the right one?

[Neverenoughwatches]

9 minutes ago, Murks said:

Oldhippy what type stake should a use when rebushing hole Is the doom the right one?

Haha stop it with the Doom stake, the Doom stake has already been shown not to work. Dome stake Dome, okay lets forget the dome stake, its a round nose stake.

1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

What a mess. They need to be re-bushed and make sure they are the correct depth. Never ever just get a hammer and hit it with out thinking, if you are not sure ask on here and provide good clear photos. 

Haha, can i enter you into the tact of the year awards OH ?

[Murks]

Yes thanks that be great 

[Neverenoughwatches]

58 minutes ago, Murks said:

Yes thanks that be great 

The metal handle is a nice old one with a light weight to it, the wooden handle is when i want a bit more heft.  Its not just about the hammer murks its more the person wielding it. I've been using hammers since i was 5 so thats over 50 years now the last 40 years almost daily. I could probably get away with using a lump hammer, control is the name of the game when using a staking tool.

[Murks]

a rebushed the fourth wheel  bridge but my train wheels are still no spinning the center wheel and fourth are locking a notice my centre wheel is tipping a notice everytime that a put the center wheel screw for the train bridge the center wheel goes really stiff and no end shake or side and it tipping on one side anyone know the issue the same movemen t on this discussion 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Murks

[Neverenoughwatches]

23 minutes ago, Murks said:

a rebushed the fourth wheel  bridge but my train wheels are still no spinning the center wheel and fourth are locking a notice my centre wheel is tipping a notice everytime that a put the center wheel screw for the train bridge the center wheel goes really stiff and no end shake or side and it tipping on one side anyone know the issue the same movemen t on this discussion 

Do the mean the center and third wheel are locking up ? What exactly have you re-bushed and how did you do that ? Check both wheels separately with the bridge on starting with the center wheel, does it have some end shake and side shake ? Is there any obvious wobble to the wheel when you give it puff of air ? Looking down on the bridge and mainplate does the center wheel arbor have correct amount of sideshake, thats enough to permit free running but not so much that its position shifts to cause binding up of the third wheel. Then check the third wheel in the same way on its own. They must both have adaquate play in both directions. If they both have end play to spin freely and the side play is ok that they mesh correctly then they should spin together .

18 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

What a mess. They need to be re-bushed and make sure they are the correct depth. Never ever just get a hammer and hit it with out thinking, if you are not sure ask on here and provide good clear photos. 

Murks i know you're keen an all, thats bloody fantastic mate , but can i just remind you of the statement Old Hippy made. Previous hole closing without advice first has caused you some grief, yes we all make mistakes, I've made some monumental ones but i like to think i learned from them. I have only been doing repair for 2 years not even consistently but in that time ive replaced and adjusted jewels, replaced staffs, peened holes in plates, bridges, barrels, manipulated,fixed and repinned hairsprings, trued and poised wheels, messed some of it up and got some of it right, but asked watched and read how i should go about it first. I haven't replaced a brass bush and although i might think its the same as replacing a jewel, i would say " hey Old Hippy can you just run through with me please how to do that to make sure I'm on the track " I think you know where I'm going with this. So even though i might be sounding like an ass, can i just say without offending you and from the bottom of my heart ,  "back up mate , hold your horses, slow down and be sure what you are doing is right " Its always best to ask first if its something you haven't done before, even if in your head you are sure, because in reality there just might be a vital bit of information you are missing. 

Reg. Rich x