Jaeger Le Coultre Caliber 468 Breguet Hairsprings? Are they all the same?

[onlyhandswatchrepair]

Im currently servicing a JLC 468 movement. I tried dissassembling the balance and the hairspring when i tried to reinstall it I went to far, firstly Im trying to now remove it and try again but im afraid i went to far down the staff. Any ideas if that affects anything? If so, I need to see if all the hairsprings are the same for part number 721. HELP please

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, onlyhandswatchrepair said:

Im currently servicing a JLC 468 movement. I tried dissassembling the balance and the hairspring when i tried to reinstall it I went to far, firstly Im trying to now remove it and try again but im afraid i went to far down the staff. Any ideas if that affects anything? If so, I need to see if all the hairsprings are the same for part number 721. HELP please

always nice to give pictures of whatever you're working on because often times people recognize the problem or how to fix the problem but may not recognize the exact watch. So the website below has at least a picture the movement.

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&LeCoultre_468

then typically on watches the hairspring collet would press all the way down to the balance arms. There are examples though of clocks for instance you don't know if I've ever seen a watch where the collet is not all the way down.

Then the confusion on my part once again this is why pictures are nice you're looking for hairsprings related to part 721

the problem is 721 has a flat hairspring and that typically will be a problem. Typically flat hairspring is our vibrated to each balance wheel there are not interchangeable with other balance wheels and they're not available as a spare part typically

then as your title indicated Breguet Hairsprings are typically pretty made to exacting specifications and they are interchangeable but they still have to be matched the balance wheel. This means the balance wheel has to have timing screws and you'd have to have access to timing screws and/or timing washers because otherwise if you swap hairsprings you'll be way off in timekeeping

oh and according to the link above there are actually several different balance staffs for this watch as soon as you get lots of balance staffs and lots of components then replacing stuff can be a bit of a challenge to get the exact right thing. Plus this looks like a vintage watch that will make things even more complicated.for instance looking at the usual source I look at for parts cross-references all I see is a stem available for this watch and I'm not even finding a tech sheet.

So I really think you should probably stop and regroup and see what you're really doing before you break your hairspring as getting a new one of those will be probably impossible, by the way what were you doing when you are playing with your hairspring

 

[onlyhandswatchrepair]

This is where I’m at now. Lol I got it off but the collet is off. 

[JohnR725]

I snipped out and magnified image your hairspring definitely looks in very bad condition in addition to missing its collet looks like it's twisted at the stud and in general looks in very bad condition. so basically it looks like balance complete but finding one might be a challenge. 

 

 

[Nucejoe]

 This coil is worth sorting out, I would keep it + this balance and the collet, because  it left the company  matched with your balance, whereas a new spring of the same strength needs to be vibrated to match this balance.

This is a high grade piece and expensive providing you find such  balance complete. 

Rgds

 

[rehajm]

49 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

This coil is worth sorting out, I would keep it

For you pros out there these Breguet over coils are one of the more frustrating aspects of this as a hobby for me. The knowledge is sparse, grainy videos, 'leave it to the experts', ancient pictures of dead watchmakers sticking tweezers into strange species of wood, Bohr Model looking overcoil patterns, a whole drawer full of special Bergeon tweezers and hand-honed Frankentools...I sometimes wonder if learning to vibrate new is a better option, that's assuming appropriate raw hairsprings could be acquired...

...I have a couple watches sitting in the trays waiting for new balances that will likely be there forever...

...so if any of you want to step up with over coil boot camp I'm ready to enlist.

Edited October 27, 2023 by rehajm

[JohnR725]

5 hours ago, rehajm said:

For you pros out there these Breguet over coils are one of the more frustrating aspects

if they've been bent and not where there supposed to be it doesn't really matter if you're pro-or not it takes a lot of studying to figure out where they been bent then ideally it's really nice if you another one to look at when you're trying to figure it out. Even then it would take hours of time to figure out where you're supposed to doing the bending. so yes putting them back where there supposed to be is going to be very time-consuming and you do have to have the skills of working with hairsprings which requires lots of practice preferably on something that you don't care about.

5 hours ago, rehajm said:

.I sometimes wonder if learning to vibrate new is a better option, that's assuming appropriate raw hairsprings could be acquired..

it's easy if you want to learn hairspring vibrating they still teach it in the schools. The local Rolex sponsored college still teaches vibrating of hairsprings I think they do one 6497 hairspring. Versus the days of wostep at least in Switzerland where you did 12 hairsprings. But for those 12 hairsprings we went through hundreds of them on our way to learning how to do those.  . But if you want to learn there are still teaching it. of course the problem will be when you get out you still have no hairsprings to vibrate. Or almost no hairsprings there out there but the really hard to find.

it's a shame we couldn't go back in time when the problem would be easy there are companies that would vibrate your hair Springs.

5 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

This coil is worth sorting out, I would keep it + this balance and the collet, because  it left the company  matched with your balance, whereas a new spring of the same strength needs to be vibrated to match this balance.

we don't know about the center part of the hairspring whether it broke off or the pin fell out unlikely. Then looking at the condition it's currently in  how would you recommend he goes about fixing the problem? As his skill set with hairsprings appears to be lacking at least at this time

but I do agree with getting it balance complete is going to be expensive as it looks like a new watch will have to be purchased. Or basically used watch off of eBay just to get the balance complete. This is why when you start practicing watch repair working on expensive watches is a good thing. It's good because it will teach you that you shouldn't be working on expensive watches as it's going to be expensive to repair the watch. It's usually better to start off with something that's readily available inexpensive and no one cares about accidentally gets destroyed. As a replacement would be easy to find versus this.

 

[RichardHarris123]

Sorry but I can't resist, my other half nearly p£%sed herself with the " know your vibrator" part. 

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

  how would you recommend he goes about fixing the problem? As his skill set with hairsprings appears to be lacking 

 I gather the spring is not broke,  as I magnified the pic of the collet and saw no piece of the spring in its slot. 

The price of a JLC balance complete usually  makes one decide to master  hairspring repair.

Rgds

[nevenbekriev]

The center end is probably broken , but it is not such a big problem as adding 2 aditional washers under 2 screws will solve this. Bit the shape of the spring is so bad in all it's lenght that it will be easier to drow it in a straight line and turn it again little by little than trying to repair as if it has just 1 or 2 or 3 different bent places. And yes, it can be done, but how isochrone it will be in the end? Hairspring vibration is good variant, In such cases I try hairsprings from all kinds of soviet calibers (have many of them) and usually find suitable one that needs just a little shortening

[onlyhandswatchrepair]

Guys cannot believe it but I finally found the replacement balance. Perrin in Canada had it for sale and snagged it up. Thanks for your help on the repair. You guys are the best