Is my dial enamel?

[Waggy]

Normally I would be more confident, but this is an expensive (in terms of $ and sentimental value) vintage watch, but I am second guessing myself as I want to make sure before I mess things up that I have a enamel/ceramic dial. I have stripped the watch down which is a older Ladies Cartier Tank (ETA 2512-1) and I 'think' (95% sure) the dial is enamel. If so then I can use different cleaning techniques than I would with a normal dial.

• Is there a way to confirm that the dial is enamel? it looks like the coating is also on the back of the dial, which is one element that leads me to think it is enamel. 
• The dial seems to have that glassy look and feel and feels cold to the touch
• I know you can differentiate between glass/sapphire crystals and acrylic ones using your teeth.... can I use this test for an enamel dial also?
• if it is enamel what are the chances that the numbers etc are painted on top of the ceramic, or will they be under the ceramic and safe to clean over
• I have also read that a fizzy denture cleaner tablets can be used to clean these enamel dials (mainly clock dials) could this be an option?

Apologies for the lack of pictures, but I forgot to download the SD card from my scope last night, when I get home tonight I'll add more/better pictures to this thread.

[JohnR725]

no pictures of the front and back of the dial. This means I get to guess based on your descriptions hopefully you got those correct

13 minutes ago, Waggy said:

Is there a way to confirm that the dial is enamel? it looks like the coating is also on the back of the dial, which is one element that leads me to think it is enamel. 

in order to enamel a dial or anything for that matter you have to have a counter enamel on the back side. Otherwise when the basically glass goes solid it's thermal expansion is different from the copper and it will break off. So you put basically a enamel on the backside usually not very pretty good as the same thermal properties which means the dial hopefully won't crack. It's basically a really interesting procedure if you do enameling that you have to put enamel on both sides. it also means that typically enamel dial's will be much thicker than pay for dials because enamel which is class is basically going to be thicker.

16 minutes ago, Waggy said:

I know you can differentiate between glass/sapphire crystals and acrylic ones using your teeth.... can I use this test for an enamel dial also?

sapphire is easy as it has a cold feel. Is a very different thermal properties than the others. Glass if you gently try to scratch it without a lot of enthusiasm is relatively hard as compared to plastic which if you just touch you'll scratch.  so basically enamel dial should be like glass I suppose if you made sure it was not in a visible location or maybe on the back side take a screwdriver and gently maybe try it was some window or drinking glass first. In other words if you're a scraper painted dial it would be like the acrylic crystal it would just scrape instantly but something to its glass hard will take a little more force but if you're enthusiastic you could definitely scratch it with steel tools

19 minutes ago, Waggy said:

if it is enamel what are the chances that the numbers etc are painted on top of the ceramic, or will they be under the ceramic and safe to clean over

normally with the American pocket watch enamel dial's I will actually run them briefly through the same ultrasonic cleaner as what they're using to clean their watch bands in cases in the front room. I don't leave it in there all day can they don't want to push my luck but promptly made enamel dial can be washed and can be an ultrasonic at least for a while. But I've heard stories of people who found out that the white is enamel but the numbers are not. The summary was talking about the numbering floating away which I haven't seen yet

21 minutes ago, Waggy said:

• have also read that a fizzy denture cleaner tablets can be used to clean these enamel dials (mainly clock dials) could this be an option?

Apologies for the lack of pictures, but I forgot to download the SD card from my scope last night, when I get home tonight I'll add more/better pictures to this thread.

okay haven't read the fine print we will get the pictures of eventually okay it would help to see the backside. Then I've heard of people using the dentures stuff as I said I is wash it with the same stuff the use for cleaning the watch bands you can even take a brush to it because it's almost like washing   a eating  plate.

 

[Waggy]

@JohnR725 thanks for your help and advice, apologies again for the lack of pictures, I'll add them tonight when I get back home

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

On 9/27/2023 at 6:27 AM, Waggy said:

Normally I would be more confident, but this is an expensive (in terms of $ and sentimental value) vintage watch, but I am second guessing myself as I want to make sure before I mess things up that I have a enamel/ceramic dial. I have stripped the watch down which is a older Ladies Cartier Tank (ETA 2512-1) and I 'think' (95% sure) the dial is enamel. If so then I can use different cleaning techniques than I would with a normal dial.

• Is there a way to confirm that the dial is enamel? it looks like the coating is also on the back of the dial, which is one element that leads me to think it is enamel. 
• The dial seems to have that glassy look and feel and feels cold to the touch
• I know you can differentiate between glass/sapphire crystals and acrylic ones using your teeth.... can I use this test for an enamel dial also?
• if it is enamel what are the chances that the numbers etc are painted on top of the ceramic, or will they be under the ceramic and safe to clean over
• I have also read that a fizzy denture cleaner tablets can be used to clean these enamel dials (mainly clock dials) could this be an option?

Apologies for the lack of pictures, but I forgot to download the SD card from my scope last night, when I get home tonight I'll add more/better pictures to this thread.

Off topic sorry but isn't that what we should have seen on the caseback of the cartier (fake) last week. The cheaper Vermeil versions after the Cartier branches were sold off. What is the movement inside ?

[Waggy]

Here are the pictures I promised, apologies for the delay:

I determined that the dial was not enamel, I followed @JohnR725 advice and observed how searchable it was and this revealed it was not porcelain, so I restricted my clean to a minimal cleanup.

This is an ETA 2512-1 movement

Everything felt right about the watch as I was servicing it, from the parts used to little touches like the black polish on the screws etc. I replaced the crystal and the mainspring as the bridal was broken off - not sure if this was done before or during servicing.

I think Mrs W will be happy this Christmas.

Watch is now finished and just have it on test before final calibration.

[RichardHarris123]

39 minutes ago, Waggy said:

Here are the pictures I promised, apologies for the delay:

I determined that the dial was not enamel, I followed @JohnR725 advice and observed how searchable it was and this revealed it was not porcelain, so I restricted my clean to a minimal cleanup.

This is an ETA 2512-1 movement

Everything felt right about the watch as I was servicing it, from the parts used to little touches like the black polish on the screws etc. I replaced the crystal and the mainspring as the bridal was broken off - not sure if this was done before or during servicing.

I think Mrs W will be happy this Christmas.

Watch is now finished and just have it on test before final calibration.

Photos of the final product, please. 

[JohnR725]

27 minutes ago, Waggy said:

observed how searchable it was and this revealed it was not porcelain, so I restricted my clean to a minimal cleanup.

If you had posted the picture I would've told you instantly when I look at it it's been painted.

Just for future reference of enameled dials. Typically enameled dials have a base metal of copper. If there abused dials like the images I swiped coming up first they can get broken and you will notice they broke with a dial feet were. If you look at the broken sections notice how the white enamel which is basically a ground glass has thickness versus paint which is paper thin.

You look at the lower right-hand side of the image the shiny copper and you can see the thickness of the enamel. The also see a crack that goes upwards that's another unfortunate problem of enameled tiles I get cracked. On the other hand unlike a painted dial you can usually clean that if you're careful and that will typically go away. Let's look at some other pictures online

More pictures from online. Chipped dial again you can see the copper underneath it also noticed gold objects basically fired into the enamel. As are not glued on top. Also typical on pocket watch styles the second bids is a separate thing. Enamel dials are usually several layers there's one or two white players and the gets ground in between the firing so it's nice and smooth typically I think they like to do list just one layer of one layer of white they grind it than the black stuff is applied in a variety of methods along with the gold and then that gets fired and I think when you of the gold they might do another clearcoat on top of all of not quite sure how that gets in their but it's definitely in the glass basically

I'm probably giving you more information than you need to know or care about the reason they like to minimize the firings is because each time you heat up the enamel the copper underneath can oxidize and it will bleed through which your beautiful white enamel.Then when I was considerably younger I once made an enameled bowl which did require multiple firings and there's kinda pretty but the white counter enamel of course starts to get a little bit green as the copper will eventually bleed its way through so they do try to minimize how many times after fire the dials. So and it does take a lot of effort to make these I heard or read somewhere that when they first started up they would eventually end up with huge pot kills a rejected dials until I got the techniques down

 

Now the backside of our dial. You can see that the white is not perfectly clean as that's only used for the front side. Often times you will see the green bleeding through this one actually looks quite decent. It also see how the second Smaller disk was in this case soldered in place. Which is a low temperature solder and some of those are lower than others so if you are cleaning N/A hot bath of water you want to be really careful I haven't had any come apart but I'm reasonably sure on one occasion that the solder had a little different look as I think it had started the melt in the boiling water so some of these alloys are very low melting.

Then since I've hijacked the discussion on enameled dials what is not an enamel dial?This is actually being currently sold on eBay as rough handled enamel dial has the casual look but look carefully the enamel has thickness like enamel but it's not and it looks like it shrunk plus it's popped off and we don't have shiny copper

Oh yes there is a clue here I already know what it is I actually have a dial like this not as bad as this something that Hamilton did now let's look at the backside we know enameled tiles have to have the counter enameling or else. So this one becomes interesting there is zero counter enameling

Not enamel But a plastic called Melamine. Replacement for enameled visits easier to do just doesn't last as well some of them last perfectly and others like this disintegrate. Or get really big cracks which cannot be cleaned. Obvious giveaways when you look at it is it looks like it shrunk and zero enamel on the backside here's a link that talks about a little more

https://blog.pocketwatchdatabase.com/2021/06/27/the-hamilton-watch-company-melamine-dial-introduction/

Continuing with the theme of dials something common with this company their name is in more than one location

Other companies have similar things some of the printing and I've seen this on enameled aisles is extremely tidy almost in a microscope to see it. Basically secret signatures on dials and sometime on watch plates.

Then I believe your movement is this

https://17jewels.info/movements/e/eta/eta-2512-1/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Waggy]

Here is the finished item...Shhhhhh! don't show Mrs W.

[Neverenoughwatches]

11 minutes ago, Waggy said:

Here is the finished item...Shhhhhh! don't show Mrs W.

Cracking job waggy, she will be so pleased. You might even get that lathe the xmas after.

[rehajm]

what kind of accuracy from the ETA are you getting? 

[spectre6000]

On 9/26/2023 at 11:27 PM, Waggy said:

I know you can differentiate between glass/sapphire crystals and acrylic ones using your teeth.... can I use this test for an enamel dial also?

What?

Edited September 30, 2023 by spectre6000

[Waggy]

8 hours ago, rehajm said:

what kind of accuracy from the ETA are you getting? 

Around 6 seconds/day

4 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

What

If you tap a crystal against your teeth you can tell if its plastic or glass/sapphire. Also works on pearls.

[spectre6000]

Ah. I thought you were saying there was a way to tell the difference between glass and sapphire with your teeth.