Waltham No. 610 (1908) movement

[kd8tzc]

I had come across a Waltham No 610 movement some years to learn to do watch repairs on.  It runs fine, but would like to branch out from just doing the Unitas 6407/ST36 movement.

Does anyone know where I might find a technical sheet showing all of the parts as well as the lift angle, etc.  Or was this before such things were created?  I'm trying to find something that will show me how this comes apart and goes together.  I have an idea of how the side opposite of the face of the watch, but the face side of the watch looks like it may be hiding things under that surface.

As always, thank you for your patience with me.

[RichardHarris123]

Photos always help. 

[JohnR725]

11 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

lift angle

Lift angle in order to get a lift angle typically today it's easy because modern timing machines use that. But when Waltham was making pocket watches they didn't have modern timing machines. So that means you have to rely on somebody else was done the work for you or you have to do it yourself which is figure out the lift angle and there's not a lot of lift angles on pocket watches.

 

11 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

technical sheet showing all of the parts

Technical sheets I like that showing detailed step-by-step assembly disassemble a lubrication of lift angles we would all like to find one of those for a vintage pocket watches

11 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

but the face side of the watch looks like it may be hiding things under that surface.

Picture would be nice of what you are actually concerned about

oh and what about some of the other little stuff like the keyless work Waltham can be quite interesting.

Okay for the lift angle I have a link with a listing of a few And how you can figure that out for yourself

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/17624-lift-angle-on-pocket-watches/

To get you started with pocket watches here's a link it's a rather nice book for watch repair. You'll notice you can download or in a variety of your favorite formats

https://archive.org/details/TM9-1575

I'm attaching a PDF parts list your watch which also presents a problem. The problem is typical of American pocket watches is lots and lots and lots of variations for the same model or grade number. Often times in the case of balance staffs like Elgin one part number four variations of staffs which are different here they'll of separate part numbers but there's lots and lots and lots of variations

Without pictures I have to guess but I'm going to attach an image of part of the keyless mechanism. You want to pay attention because the funny U-shaped spring as a habit of flying away if you're unaware of what's lurking under their.

Okay this should get you started if you have a questions it help to have a picture as is typical with American pocket watches even of the same manufacture there can be lots of variations.

Waltham Watch and Clock Material - 1948 Edition.pdf 1908.pdf

[RichardHarris123]

Please send pictures, they really help and we like looking.  If the keyless works is like the one in @JohnR725picture, stick the spring down with some Rodico. 

[kd8tzc]

Yes, sorry, pictures.  Here you go.  Sorry, I could not get the entire movement in one picture (digital inspection microscope), so I had to do a few for each side.

On the dial side, is that just a smooth plate that comes off to expose the keyless works under it?  I can see the clutch and all, but I know there is more someplace.  Or must I work on the other side first and then with all the plates and movement removed, It will then be exposed?

Just a note, it appears that there may also be a spring protruding from the keyless works area.  I took a closeup of what I am seeing.

@JohnR725thank you for the documents... I have actually been searching for that old Military book as I have heard about it and I'm sure it will be very helpful.

I was told by an experienced watch person that this movement would be easy to work on... well, I hear brain surgery is easy too when you know what you are doing. 

Edited March 25, 2023 by kd8tzc

[RichardHarris123]

I'm assuming that the set lever etc must be under the barrel bridge. 

[kd8tzc]

13 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I'm assuming that the set lever etc must be under the barrel bridge. 

You've got me... I guess I will know when I get it apart (unless someone else knows).  Looking in the TM9-1575 I do see it on p129, but it doesn't show an exploded view to get an idea where it might be in relation to other items.

@JohnR725, where did that image of the Pendant Setting Mechanism come from?

[JohnR725]

7 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

I was told by an experienced watch person that this movement would be easy to work on... well, I hear brain surgery is easy too when you know what you are doing. 

Personally for American watch companies I'm not a big fan of Waltham.

You'll notice I snipped out some images out of the military book so on page 129 yes it shows all the setting parts. But on  page 128 did you notice their hiding in there there under the bridge. Then you can't really see it in the picture so I snipped out one at your pictures and circled something what is that?

As a reminder typically American pocket watches vintage and some European watches do not have a conventional stem. The stem uncrowned come with the case. When the movement is out of the case the stem is no longer pushing on the keyless and it typically goes into setting. The watch doesn't like to run in  the setting position and typically won't run the best. If you're wondering why your watch doesn't seem to be running well out of the case that's why.

The watch companies recognize the problem and came up with a variety of ways to put the watch back into winding mode. So Waltham has that small protruding piece of metal that you can pull out just a little bit and you'll see that the keyless will go back into winding.

6 hours ago, kd8tzc said:

where did that image of the Pendant Setting Mechanism come from?

A lot of the watch companies will have reference material that was something that Waltham had.

Then another image of why I hate Waltham's. Although it could be worse it could be a jeweled barrel then things get way way complicated. So mainspring barrel is not like you've normally seen before. It's been discussed on the group somewhere else but just a warning you can't shove a modern replacement spring in and have it work. Ideally I would find a vintage new rules stock spring off of eBay. Otherwise you going to have to modify the hole end of the spring to get it to work on the barrel itself. As I said it's been discussed before I let you try to find out if you can't find it I'll post the images again. Also pay attention to how the barrel goes back together like the center arbor piece that holds it all together quite a pain in the ass.

[RichardHarris123]

7 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Personally for American watch companies I'm not a big fan of Waltham.

You'll notice I snipped out some images out of the military book so on page 129 yes it shows all the setting parts. But on  page 128 did you notice their hiding in there there under the bridge. Then you can't really see it in the picture so I snipped out one at your pictures and circled something what is that?

As a reminder typically American pocket watches vintage and some European watches do not have a conventional stem. The stem uncrowned come with the case. When the movement is out of the case the stem is no longer pushing on the keyless and it typically goes into setting. The watch doesn't like to run in  the setting position and typically won't run the best. If you're wondering why your watch doesn't seem to be running well out of the case that's why.

The watch companies recognize the problem and came up with a variety of ways to put the watch back into winding mode. So Waltham has that small protruding piece of metal that you can pull out just a little bit and you'll see that the keyless will go back into winding.

A lot of the watch companies will have reference material that was something that Waltham had.

Then another image of why I hate Waltham's. Although it could be worse it could be a jeweled barrel then things get way way complicated. So mainspring barrel is not like you've normally seen before. It's been discussed on the group somewhere else but just a warning you can't shove a modern replacement spring in and have it work. Ideally I would find a vintage new rules stock spring off of eBay. Otherwise you going to have to modify the hole end of the spring to get it to work on the barrel itself. As I said it's been discussed before I let you try to find out if you can't find it I'll post the images again. Also pay attention to how the barrel goes back together like the center arbor piece that holds it all together quite a pain in the ass.

The setting lever etc is under the barrel bridge? 

[JohnR725]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

The setting lever etc is under the barrel bridge? 

Yes it's hiding under the barrel bridge and yes it's not like a modern keyless works.

If you look at the images up above. In figure 109 is the plunger as they label that. This is the part of the stem ask upon in other words when the watches in winding position is pushed in when it pulls out where it comes out it's in setting. The end of that pushes on figure 108 the lever. It would probably be a little easier to understand if it's all in one nice photograph.

[RichardHarris123]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

Yes it's hiding under the barrel bridge and yes it's not like a modern keyless works.

If you look at the images up above. In figure 109 is the plunger as they label that. This is the part of the stem ask upon in other words when the watches in winding position is pushed in when it pulls out where it comes out it's in setting. The end of that pushes on figure 108 the lever. It would probably be a little easier to understand if it's all in one nice photograph.

O was right for once, hehe.