Mainspring winders at an unbelievable price

[Waggy]

?

Edited July 3, 2023 by Waggy

[gpraceman]

Do these winders come apart by chance?  Basically, could one remove the pusher from the winder housing?

[gpraceman]

Well, I answered my own question.  The pusher pieces are press fit together.  Maybe a dab of glue applied.  They are not intended to come apart, but I managed it.  It pressed back together without issue.

The problem that I had with the caliber specific 10 piece set was that when I found an appropriate barrel, the associated arbor was too small and the winder would not accept a larger diameter arbor.  So, I ended up returning the set.  Sadly, I could not find a Chinese equivalent to the Bergeon generic winders.

I got to thinking and decided to do an experiment.  Take one of these cheap Chinese sets and convert them into generic winders, like the Bergeon numbered winders.  So, I ordered another set and broke out my 115 piece drill bit set and drilled out the 2892/2836 winder to fit a 3.5mm arbor.  That essentially turned it into a pretty close equivalent of the Bergeon #7.  That went well, so I took the 7750 winder and also drilled it out to 3.5mm to make it a close equivalent to a Bergeon #8.  That one came apart while drilling it.  Maybe I wasn't feeding the drill bit in slow enough, but it pressed back together easy enough.  I did one more, taking the 8200 winder and drilling it out to 3.0mm, making it a close equivalent to a Bergeon #6.  As I have the future need, I'll drill out winders for the needed arbor size.  I can still use the original arbors in the winders, they are just a bit of a sloppy fit now.

The largest arbor on the 10 piece set was only 2.7mm, but I had mainsprings that needed larger than that.  I ended up getting the Bergeon #4, 6 and 8 right hand arbors (not cheap but far cheaper than the whole winder and arbor combination).  I chose those to give me 2.5mm, 3.0mm and 3.5mm arbors while giving me the largest barrel washer (or whatever it is called) to cap off the winder barrel.  I first tried these arbors with the 3D printed winders and while they worked easier than the staple hook setup, it was not as ideal as having a traditional winder body and arbor combination.

I didn't feel too bad about modifying the Chinese set, as it only cost me a tad over $41 USD.  The Bergeon right hand arbors were from £20 to £25, cheaper than the left hand arbors, for some reason.  I'm going to steal the brass washer idea and make up washers with varying inner diameters for when I need the opposite wind.

If anyone else wants to try this themself, I would say to get the drill bit lined up well with the arbor hole and drill quite slowly.  You will feel less resistance when you make it through the top part of the pusher.  You can stop drilling at that point.  I clamped the bottom end of the pusher in the vise.  Make sure to clean out all of the shavings, of course, when done.

Edited July 21, 2023 by gpraceman

[gpraceman]

Finished off the set with a 3D printed holder.  If I had to do it over, I'd not have gotten the Bergeon #4 handle, as the cheap set has  a couple of handles that may suit.

 

[rossjackson01]

I've just realised, thanks to a member, that the Chinese winding set has Left (counter clockwise) and Right (clockwise winding). No wonder I knackered one of the winders

1 - 2000 ------- L           2 - 2671 -------- R         3 - 2235 ------ L          4 - 8200 ------- L          5 - 8500-1 ------- L

6 - 8500-2 ---- L            7 - 3135/1824 -- R        8 - C0711 ----- R          9 - 7750 ------- R          10 - 2892/2836 -- R   

Silly me

    

Edited September 17, 2023 by rossjackson01
Spelling, Grammar, more information

[Papperskatt]

I found a "new" Chinese set, with 20 winders. The only info that I could find online was which calibers it supported, but not their dimensions or if they are left or right handed.

So I ordered a set from Amazon and it arrived yesterday. It is cheaper on AliExpress, but I wanted to be able to return it if it didn't suit my needs.

The good:
* There is just one handle, and it has a groove for both left and right, on either side. It seem to be designed after the Bergeon and is quite comfortable.
* Steel arbors

The bad:
* Caliber specific sizes instead of generic ones. I was hoping that with more sizes that maybe there would be enough to be a competitor to the Bergeon 5355 set. But no, weird sizes, and a even a few "duplicates" - different calibers but with identical and interchangeable dimensions!
* I would prefer the handle to be slightly thicker. The walls are ~0.65mm which feels a bit flimsy, and it can easily deform above the groove.

I will return the set to Amazon in a few days, but will be happy to try to answer any questions about it before then.

The sizes are:
2000        7.4        1.6        L
2671        7.3        1.6        R
2235        8.0        1.75    L
8200        9.9        2.6        L
8500-1        9.3        1.8        L
8500-2        9.3        2.2        L
3135/2824    10.9    2.4        R
C07111        10.9    1.4        R
7750        12.0    2.7        R
2892/2836    10.9    2.4        R
L888        10.7    1.55    R
1904-1        8        1.75    R
1904-2        8        1.75    L
1847        11.3    1.7        R
9015        10.7    2.4        R
2450        10.1    2.35    R
240            9        1.9        R
3120        8.5        2.1        R
899            9.5        1.6        L
2135        7.9        1.7        L

The first ten are the same as in the other sets, and the last ten are the new ones. 

I'm very surprised that they don't sell a generic set like the Bergeon 5355. 7 winders, 14 arbors (7 left and 7 right), and one handle. They could charge double of the ~$100 that this set sell for and it would still be a great deal!

I also found out that there exist a 30pcs set out there. The only place that I found was a seller on Alibaba, and they want $540 per set, and minimum of two. No thank you!

[gpraceman]

1 hour ago, Papperskatt said:

I found a "new" Chinese set, with 20 winders. The only info that I could find online was which calibers it supported, but not their dimensions or if they are left or right handed.

So I ordered a set from Amazon and it arrived yesterday. It is cheaper on AliExpress, but I wanted to be able to return it if it didn't suit my needs.

The good:
* There is just one handle, and it has a groove for both left and right, on either side. It seem to be designed after the Bergeon and is quite comfortable.
* Steel arbors

The bad:
* Caliber specific sizes instead of generic ones. I was hoping that with more sizes that maybe there would be enough to be a competitor to the Bergeon 5355 set. But no, weird sizes, and a even a few "duplicates" - different calibers but with identical and interchangeable dimensions!
* I would prefer the handle to be slightly thicker. The walls are ~0.65mm which feels a bit flimsy, and it can easily deform above the groove.

I will return the set to Amazon in a few days, but will be happy to try to answer any questions about it before then.

The sizes are:
2000        7.4        1.6        L
2671        7.3        1.6        R
2235        8.0        1.75    L
8200        9.9        2.6        L
8500-1        9.3        1.8        L
8500-2        9.3        2.2        L
3135/2824    10.9    2.4        R
C07111        10.9    1.4        R
7750        12.0    2.7        R
2892/2836    10.9    2.4        R
L888        10.7    1.55    R
1904-1        8        1.75    R
1904-2        8        1.75    L
1847        11.3    1.7        R
9015        10.7    2.4        R
2450        10.1    2.35    R
240            9        1.9        R
3120        8.5        2.1        R
899            9.5        1.6        L
2135        7.9        1.7        L

The first ten are the same as in the other sets, and the last ten are the new ones. 

I'm very surprised that they don't sell a generic set like the Bergeon 5355. 7 winders, 14 arbors (7 left and 7 right), and one handle. They could charge double of the ~$100 that this set sell for and it would still be a great deal!

 

I also found out that there exist a 30pcs set out there. The only place that I found was a seller on Alibaba, and they want $540 per set, and minimum of two. No thank you!

 

You can modify the cheap Chinese set to make it more of a generic set.  I did that with several of the winders from my set, by drilling out the arbor hole to a larger size.  I chucked the pusher part of the winder in a vise and slowly drilled out the arbor hole.  If the winder comes apart in doing so, just push it back together.  With my modified set, it is easier to find the combination of arbor and winder that I need for a particular mainspring.

I went a bit further by buying the Bergeon #6 and #8 arbors (arbors only, not with the winders), which gives me arbors of 3.0mm and 3.5mm diameter, respectively.  The largest arbor from the cheap set was 2.7mm and that was too small for some of the vintage mainsprings that I was working with.  Well, I also bought the #4, which turns out that I didn't really need.

If you need a left hand wind but only have a right hand arbor (or vice versa), You can do one of two things.  Wind up the mainspring into a winder, preferably a bit smaller than you would normally grab, push it into the winder that is a bit bigger than the first, then push it into the watch barrel.  Or you can make up a series of brass washers, drilled out to different diameters, grab one of those to push the mainspring into, flip it over and then push it into the watch barrel.

Attached is a photo of my modified set and a chart that shows winder sizes.

Mainspring-Winder-Size-Charts.pdf

Edited January 24 by gpraceman