Waltham jewel replacement?

Bill241 · November 29, 2022

Morning all,

I’m currently trying to restore a Waltham hunter fitted with the 1899/1908 model Riverside movement (19J). The main fault is a broken balance staff pivot, but I’ve now found the appropriate replacement (4861) with the correct pivot diameter.

The more awkward fault is the damaged third wheel jewel mounted into the mainplate- it’s badly cracked and worn, its integrity assured only by its (rubbed in?) setting. I have a jewelling tool to push it out but expect it to disintegrate the moment I do!

As I won’t be able to measure it, could anyone please advise what the diameter of this jewel is?

Many thanks,

Bill

JohnR725 · November 29, 2022

3 hours ago, Bill241 said:

found the appropriate replacement (4861) with the correct pivot diameter.

Just remember when replacing any pocket watch staff or any staff for that matter. Measure the original one and measure the new one and make sure they're the same size to avoid unpleasant surprises. Then I believe this is a friction staff see what we careful that actually friction it out and don't remove the hub in the process.

3 hours ago, Bill241 said:

The more awkward fault is the damaged third wheel jewel mounted into the mainplate- it’s badly cracked and worn, its integrity assured only by its (rubbed in?) setting. I have a jewelling tool to push it out but expect it to disintegrate the moment I do!

As I won’t be able to measure it, could anyone please advise what the diameter of this jewel is?

You have a decision to make. You can either push the old one out and as you would jeweling tool put a modern jewel in as nobody's going to see it but it won't be original. Or?

Ideally you need another burnished in jewel. On rare occasions I've seen them for sale on eBay a while back there was actually a wall from set of unset burnished in jewels but they don't show up that often. Then of course there's the minor variation of variations no guarantee that you going to find one that's going to fit even if it is the right set. As far as the hole diameter goes you can measure the wheel you have an figure out what size you need. Modern jewels don't like to be burnished in I've seen people do it but it's not the best. Works best if you can modify the jewel but you need access to a watchmaker's lathe to do that.

Leanne can we have a picture of the other side of third wheel jewel? Also you list two separate model numbers of the watch you have you want to narrow it down to one model number? Then it looks like from the parts list that the jewel and setting might actually push out as one unit perhaps in other words they set the jewel into a setting which pushed into the plate versus the normal of just burnishing it into the plate which is why need to see a picture of the other side.

Bill241 · November 29, 2022

Thanks John. I looked it up on the Pocket Watch database and it is an 1899 model, made in 1903.

I followed the excellent guidance in Henry Fried’s book with the balance staff- placing it in the jewel with the cap jewel removed to check the side shake. Fortunately, one pivot is intact and I measured it on the bench micrometer- it appears to be 0.10mm.

The balance is all apart and is indeed friction fit. The hub is blued steel which I believe the manufacturer helpfully added to tell watch repairers it is a separate part.

Here is a photo of the jewel from the dial side. The opening appears much smaller. I read a thread on the NAWCC suggesting the jewel is in a setting, which is itself then pressed into the plate. My fear is the jewel will come out but the setting will remain in situ. I guess I would then need to find a jewel that will fit into the setting.

Bill

JohnR725 · November 29, 2022

5 hours ago, Bill241 said:

lued steel

Yes the purpose of that was to tell the watchmaker not to drive it out. But sometimes people have driven them out. There is at least one or watch.org which one that they actually had updated the staff to include a blued hobby that you can put in and then user friction staff I don't think it was Waltham I think it might've been Elgin but that was an upgrade

I'm attaching a handbook that should come with your Jewel tool depending upon which one you have. What makes a handout interesting is it does show pictures of burnished in jewels and unfitting modern jewels in their place so for instance if you broke the old one you may build a ream out the fitting and fit a modern jewel but sometimes there isn't enough clearance or won't be enough material left.

Just in case you don't have it I also have a link to a Waltham material guide you go through and begin the grass the problem of getting a jewel. Yes at one time a very long time ago they were replaceable. But when the problem with American watch companies is they can end up with variations especially Waltham has lots of variations for the same market. Or some of the watch companies will have variations for the balance staff even this one has some variations even though the size is all appear to be identical so not sure why they're actually categorized as different staffs on the hand out I was looking at. But other companies like Elgin one staff comes in 12 different variations yes a lot of them were pivot variations but their separate different staffs where you can't use one in the place of the other even though they have the same part number.

Then because I'm not finding it in the catalog but I'm attaching it should be there I snipped out an image from the slightly earlier one it shows what the settings look like. So in the parts list it says there in a setting and peers with the settings are as you can see there's not a lot of material so if you listen mash out the old jewel which is usually the easiest way if you're going to replace it with a modern jewel you can agreement out and then possibly fit a modern friction jewel into the setting.Or if you in a unset jewel you could just open up the setting and replace what's in their. But you'll notice when you look at the catalog I don't think they actually specify the size of the jewel. Then yes if you had a watchmaker's lathe which is the easiest way there is a simple way of changing a modern plate jewel to be able vote burnished in.

https://archive.org/details/catalogueofwalth00walt