Jump to content

Waltham jewel replacement?

Bill241
 Share

Recommended Posts

Bill241 Member

Bill241

Posted
Posted

Morning all, 

I’m currently trying to restore a Waltham hunter fitted with the 1899/1908 model Riverside movement (19J). The main fault is a broken balance staff pivot, but I’ve now found the appropriate replacement (4861) with the correct pivot diameter. 
 

The more awkward fault is the damaged third wheel jewel mounted into the mainplate- it’s badly cracked and worn, its integrity assured only by its (rubbed in?) setting. I have a jewelling tool to push it out but expect it to disintegrate the moment I do!
 

As I won’t be able to measure it, could anyone please advise what the diameter of this jewel is? 
 

Many thanks,

Bill

 

E20B7817-EF1F-422B-A2EF-957D2E9EADA7.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites
JohnR725 Distinguished Member

JohnR725

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Bill241 said:

found the appropriate replacement (4861) with the correct pivot diameter.

Just remember when replacing any pocket watch staff or any staff for that matter. Measure the original one and measure the new one and make sure they're the same size to avoid unpleasant surprises. Then I believe this is a friction staff see what we careful that actually friction it out and don't remove the hub in the process.

3 hours ago, Bill241 said:

The more awkward fault is the damaged third wheel jewel mounted into the mainplate- it’s badly cracked and worn, its integrity assured only by its (rubbed in?) setting. I have a jewelling tool to push it out but expect it to disintegrate the moment I do!
 

As I won’t be able to measure it, could anyone please advise what the diameter of this jewel is? 

You have a decision to make. You can either push the old one out and as you would jeweling tool put a modern jewel in as nobody's going to see it but it won't be original. Or?

Ideally you need another burnished in jewel. On rare occasions I've seen them for sale on eBay a while back there was actually a wall from set of  unset burnished in jewels but they don't show up that often. Then of course there's the minor variation of variations no guarantee that you going to find one that's going to fit even if it is the right set. As far as the hole diameter goes you can measure the wheel you have an figure out what size you need. Modern jewels don't like to be burnished in I've seen people do it but it's not the best. Works best if you can modify the jewel but you need access to a watchmaker's lathe to do that.

Leanne can we have a picture of the other side of third wheel jewel? Also you list two separate model numbers of the watch you have you want to narrow it down to one model number? Then it looks like from the parts list that the jewel and setting might actually push out as one unit perhaps in other words they set the jewel into a setting which pushed into the plate versus the normal of just burnishing it into the plate which is why need to see a picture of the other side.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bill241 Member

Bill241

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Thanks John. I looked it up on the Pocket Watch database and it is an 1899 model, made in 1903. 
 

I followed the excellent guidance in Henry Fried’s book with the balance staff- placing it in the jewel with the cap jewel removed to check the side shake.  Fortunately, one pivot is intact and I measured it on the bench micrometer- it appears to be 0.10mm. 

The balance is all apart and is indeed friction fit. The hub is blued steel which I believe the manufacturer helpfully added to tell watch repairers it is a separate part. 
 

Here is a photo of the jewel from the dial side. The opening appears much smaller. I read a thread on the NAWCC suggesting the jewel is in a setting, which is itself then pressed into the plate. My fear is the jewel will come out but the setting will remain in situ. I guess I would then need to find a jewel that will fit into the setting. 
 

Bill

9F11F23D-2A94-4895-898C-EF81EBB7C079.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites
JohnR725 Distinguished Member

JohnR725

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, Bill241 said:

lued steel

Yes the purpose of that was to tell the watchmaker not to drive it out. But sometimes people have driven them out. There is at least one or watch.org which one that they actually had updated the staff to include a blued hobby that you can put in and then user friction staff I don't think it was Waltham I think it might've been Elgin but that was an upgrade

I'm attaching a handbook that should come with your Jewel tool depending upon which one you have.  What makes a handout interesting is it does show pictures of burnished in jewels and unfitting modern jewels in their place so for instance if you broke the old one you may build a ream out the fitting and fit a modern jewel but sometimes there isn't enough clearance or won't be enough material left.

Just in case you don't have it I also have a link to a Waltham material guide you go through and begin the grass the problem of getting a jewel. Yes at one time a very long time ago they were replaceable. But when the problem with American watch companies is they can end up with variations especially Waltham has lots of variations for the same market. Or some of the watch companies will have variations for the balance staff even this one has some variations even though the size is all appear to be identical so not sure why they're actually categorized as  different staffs on the hand out I was looking at. But other companies like Elgin one staff comes in 12 different variations yes a lot of them were pivot variations but their separate different staffs where you can't use one in the place of the other even though they have the same part number.

Then because I'm not finding it in the catalog but I'm attaching it should be there I snipped out an image from the slightly earlier one it shows what the settings look like. So in the parts list it says there in a setting and peers with the settings are as you can see there's not a lot of material so if you listen mash out the old jewel which is usually the easiest way if you're going to replace it with a modern jewel you can agreement out and then possibly fit a modern friction jewel into the setting.Or if you in a unset jewel you could just open up the setting and replace what's in their. But you'll notice when you look at the catalog I don't think they actually specify the size of the jewel. Then yes if you had a watchmaker's lathe which is the easiest way there is a simple way of changing a modern plate jewel to be able vote burnished in.

https://archive.org/details/catalogueofwalth00walt

 

 

Waltham 16 size jewel setting.JPG

Seitz book.pdf

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
 Share
Go to topic listing


  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Topics

  • Posts

    • RichardHarris123
      Simeon from Down Under

      By RichardHarris123 · Posted

      Hello and welcome from Leeds, England. 
    • Simeon
      Simeon from Down Under

      By Simeon · Posted

      Hi,   My name is Simeon I am based in Sydney, Australia and have recently got into watch repair / watch making.  I am very much a learner having serviced multiple forgotten watches, some of which were actually successful!   I have a slowly growing collection of watches, mainly old Soviet, a few Japanese and (not pictured) some Raketas, a Poljot Alarm, an Omega Speedmaster Reduced and a vintage (1972) Tissot Seastar.  I like unloved vintage watches, with quirky faces and enjoy bringing them back to life through the simple(!) act of disassembly, clearing and reassembly. I am an Electrical Engineer who also undertook a trade apprenticeship so I am reasonably handy - It's fair to say, I know just enough to get myself in trouble. 
    • Waggy
      Chinese clone demagnetizers

      By Waggy · Posted

      ha ha looks like a WMD.....you know I want one now  
    • Simeon
      Citizen Cosmotron X8 04-4800 Fault finding

      By Simeon · Posted

      I took a chance on a non running Cosmotron X8 ("perhaps just needs a new battery" said the advert). Sure enough, I open it up and it has the wrong battery installed (a Renata 344 rather than the correct Renata 386) and the screws holding the battery contact had been sheared off to half a head on both ends. Ho ho, I thought - there's the problem. I got the broken screws out easily enough and as soon as I placed the correct battery in place the balance started. This picked up speed when I reinstalled one side of the battery contact and looked like it was a runner. As I was trying to get the replacement screws in, I did one side but the second was a bit of struggle (hold down the battery contact against its spring while dropping the screw in with tweezers) the balance stopped again. This time it wouldn't start again. 98 percent sure that I didn't stick anything, anywhere important or break it in a mechanical way. The battery was in place for most of the struggling with the contact, so it might have had an intermittent connection which could have upset the electronics. I tried giving it a puff with the blower but the balance doesn't seem to rotate in the normal way, it seems to be held in a static position by magnet. It can be pulled out of this position but spins back and stops dead. This may well be correct for all I know. Anyway, does anyone know anything about these watches and can tell me how I would go about and fault find this? I will be servicing it at some point so should be able to rule out mechanical issues from an old watch but not sure where to start with the electrical part of it.
    • DonEilenberger
      Seiko kinetic generator coil

      By DonEilenberger · Posted

      Sorry to reopen a necro-thread (long dormant) - I have a Seiko Kinetic 5M42A that needs at least one coil, possibly both. Anyone know of any sources?  The usual fallback of eBay has failed me - there are people selling coils, but not the ones for this movement (which was apparently a very popular movement, used in Seiko and Pulsa branded watches.) The coil numbers are: 4002 516,  and 4002 519 I'd also love to find a source for spares of the screws used all over this movement - they're Seiko PN 0022 247 Thanks! (Moderator - if this should be a new thread, please do feel free to tell me, or drag this one into a new thread.) Don Eilenberger
×
×
  • Create New...