Ebosa 65 confusion

[HPS]

Hi, I am hoping for some insight or advise. I am trying to bring my buler dive watch back to life. I dissassembled, cleaned, and assembled the movement but only the seconds hand moves. I am not sure what I have done wrong here. It seems the only interaction between back and dial side for the minute and hour hands are through a wheel attached to the barrel wheel. This is what I don't understand. It is tight but can be moved by the stem when adjusting the time. Otherwise I don't see how these hands are supposed to be powered to move. I am including some pics of the disassembly in hopes they are useful. Thank yiu in advanced for any help.

[HPS]

Hello. I wanted to follow up with a few more pics in case it makes sense to anyone. The first image with the tweezers shows where the seconds wheel passes through. This is the only part that will move when wind the watch. This tube is fixed to the plate and is not movable. I can put the cannon pinion in here and it will engage with the barrel wheel directly. Putting the dial side wheels in order still gives me no idea how the minute and hour hands are supposed to move as the only direct contact is still that wheel that is part of the barrel wheel. Any help would be appreciated. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

??? The cannon pinion, which is your minute hand post, also drives the minute wheel. Then through a series of gear reductions drives the hour wheel ( hour hand post ) at one 12th of the rotational speed of the cannon pinion. I can see these connections made in your picture. With some wind put in the barrel both cannon pinion and hour wheel will be moving if the train and escapement are actively working. Put on the dial hands to quickly varify that. 

[AndyGSi]

2 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

??? The cannon pinion, which is your minute hand post, also drives the minute wheel. Then through a series of gear reductions drives the hour wheel ( hour hand post ) at one 12th of the rotational speed of the cannon pinion. I can see these connections made in your picture. With some wind put in the barrel both cannon pinion and hour wheel will be moving if the train and escapement are actively working. Put on the dial hands to quickly varify that. 

You just beat me to it.

[caseback]

With this movement, the cannon pinion doesn't have the "stick-slip" function. The additional wheel attached to the bottom of the barrel has that. If the watch runs and only the second hand moves: remove the cannon pinion and check if that additional wheel moves (slowly). You can mark it with a sharpie.

You didn't tighten the cannon pinion by any chance?

Edited yesterday at 05:24 PM by caseback

[Neverenoughwatches]

32 minutes ago, caseback said:

With this movement, the cannon pinion doesn't have the "stick-slip" function. The additional wheel attached

Directly driven from the barrel, so the friction wlll be there. If there is a problem might be that centre insert in that drive wheel.

[HPS]

Thank you for the valuable replies!

What I am understanding is that what moves the cannon pinion is that wheel attached to the lid of the barrel wheel (last 3 pictures). It feels like a tight connection, though it can be moved by the crown action when adjusting the time. Otherwise, I think it is just fixed to whatever the rotation of the barrel wheel is... I thought that was the problem, since it may be too slow, but maybe its normal?

28 minutes ago, caseback said:

With this movement, the cannon pinion doesn't have the "stick-slip" function. The additional wheel attached to the bottom of the barrel has that. If the watch runs and only the second hand moves: remove the cannon pinion and check if that additional wheel moves (slowly). You can mark it with a sharpie.

You didn't tighten the cannon pinion by any chance?

Thank you for your reply! I must admit I am not familiar with the term 'stick-slip.' From google AI: In watch repair, "stick-slip" refers to a jerky, intermittent motion where the movement parts momentarily "stick" and then abruptly "slip". This is often caused by dry, uneven lubrication, friction, or wear within the watch's intricate mechanisms. 

The wheel attached to the bottom of the barrel is fairly tight, and I thought I made a mistake separating it from the barrel wheel lid... I actually bought a new one (and a new mainspring) and did not separate it so if it needs oiling, I did not add any. 

The seconds hand moves fine when the watch is wound, but it is directly engaged with the gear-train (it is actually keeping really good time according to timegrapher). I did not tighten the cannon pinion (I don't think I am at that level of confidence to try). I will check if the wheel that is attached to the barrel wheel lid moves at all as you suggested. 

29 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

??? The cannon pinion, which is your minute hand post, also drives the minute wheel. Then through a series of gear reductions drives the hour wheel ( hour hand post ) at one 12th of the rotational speed of the cannon pinion. I can see these connections made in your picture. With some wind put in the barrel both cannon pinion and hour wheel will be moving if the train and escapement are actively working. Put on the dial hands to quickly varify that. 

Appreciate the explanation and advise! I tried this before, but with the dial in place and nothing but the seconds hand moved. I will test this again without the dial by putting some wind and attaching the minute hand to see if it moves. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

33 minutes ago, HPS said:

feels like a tight connection, though it can be moved by the crown action when adjusting the time. 

 The friction that is usually present inside the cannon pinion,  is probably on this one, the 3 projections of the centre ring.

42 minutes ago, HPS said:

am not familiar with the term 'stick-slip.' 

Otherwise known as intentional friction. This is what enables hands to move by two different methods.

46 minutes ago, HPS said:

The seconds hand moves fine when the watch is wound, but it is directly engaged with the gear-train (it is actually keeping really good time according to timegrapher). I did not tighten the cannon pinion (I don't think I am at that level of confidence to try). I will check if the wheel that is attached to the barrel wheel lid moves at all as you suggested. 

If you look at the cannon pinion on many movements it will have 2 dents in its sides. These are the friction points that touch the center wheel arbor ( which you dont have here ) that enable the 2 ways of the hand's movements ( through train progression and time setting ) . Your cannon pinion won't have these dents, dont add them !

Or shouldn't unless someone has done that.

55 minutes ago, HPS said:

Appreciate the explanation and advise! I tried this before, but with the dial in place and nothing but the seconds hand moved. I will test this again without the dial by putting some wind and attaching the minute hand to see if it moves. 

This way you will see what is not moving that should be.

It looks most likely, that the inner ring should not be separated from the cannon pinion drive wheel.

Friction must be present somewhere for the hands to move with time, that friction is overcome when you set time. That is the slight resistance you feel between your fingers when setting.

[HPS]

Thank you everyone for the advise! Now I have a working watch :).

I started with the cannon pinion and made sure the minute hand moved (shown in pics). I continued adding every component one by one to make sure the hand moved. I think that was the problem originally: the cannon pinion disengaging somehow from the barrel wheel.

[Neverenoughwatches]

Looks good.