Barrel rotates with ratchet wheel

[joelcarvajal]

Good day!

I’m servicing an automatic watch.  I applied Moebius 8217 at four points inside the barrel (bead size with a diameter 1/3 of the barrel wall) and 8200 applied thinly on the mainspring itself.  The watch is performing OK (>270 amp, 0.3ms beat error, 3s to 9s per day).
Issue: When I try to wind the mainspring fully, i wind to the point that i feel that the mainspring is already slipping.
I noticed however, that there’s a point where the barrel will move with the ratchet wheel and then i can feel the sudden “jump” inside the barrel.  

I’m worried it will stress the pallet fork too much and damage the pallet fork jewels.

1) Is this normal?
2) Should the mainspring slips inside the barrel smoothly or does it build up tension and then jumps?
3) Am I putting enough breaking grease?
4) How do i properly test if my barrel assembly is OK (related to mainspring slipping)?

Thank you for your replies.

[AndyGSi]

Can you provide more details on the movement and is it the original spring you've refitted?

[joelcarvajal]

It’s a Rolex 3130 and yes I reused the same mainspring.

 

Edited February 10 by joelcarvajal

[GPrideaux]

I can't picture how the barrel could move with the ratchet wheel unless it is becoming disengaged from the centre wheel. The movement of the barrel is regulated by the train and escapement so while everything is meshing properly it cannot move independently of them. So I would be looking at the barrel end shake and side shake to see if it is possible for the barrel teeth to disengage the centre wheel arbor.

[nickelsilver]

If the barrel is really moving, then the rivetting of the center pinion to center wheel has given up (could be the third wheel/pinion, but would be strange). Usually this is a dramatic thing and you can't wind any real tension on the spring without the pinion slipping in the wheel, so a little odd in your case. Basically, the barrel can only move as much as the escapement allows it to move; if it moves more, then something is slipping in the gear train.

[joelcarvajal]

I’m afraid that something is indeed slipping in the gear train.  Actually, I noticed that escape wheel is a bit wobbly but I assumed it is within tolerance.  But it is also possible that the center wheel pinion is also slipping.  I will investigate some more but thanks to this lead!

[ColinC]

3 hours ago, joelcarvajal said:

2) Should the mainspring slips inside the barrel smoothly or does it build up tension and then jumps?

I had the same question myself and then I found a watch that had a sort of skeletonized barrel - 
From this I observed that when an automatic spring goes beyond a certain point that the bridle slips in a smooth controlled type way until the tension is low enough and the friction holds the spring again.  From this I assume that the breaking grease is there to both prevent wear on the barrel wall and to smooth the transition into the slipping state

[joelcarvajal]

14 hours ago, ColinC said:

I had the same question myself and then I found a watch that had a sort of skeletonized barrel - 
From this I observed that when an automatic spring goes beyond a certain point that the bridle slips in a smooth controlled type way until the tension is low enough and the friction holds the spring again.  From this I assume that the breaking grease is there to both prevent wear on the barrel wall and to smooth the transition into the slipping state

I see.  So it seems I’m not putting enough breaking grease then.

So what should be the guideline for the amount of breaking grease to apply?
1) 3 to 4 points small bead-size quantity around the barrel wall
2) I’ve read somewhere that breaking grease should be applied evenly across the entire circumference of the barrel wall right in the middle.
3) Apply a generous amount of breaking grease around the wall

THank you again for your support.

[Kalanag]

The braking grease will not solve your problem. The braking grease does not brake. It is  specially formulated for wear prevention of the heavily loaded contact area between barrel wall and bridle.

The spring should slip just a tiny amount as soon as it is fully wound. If you feel it jumping there is a problem with the spring and its bridle, or there is way too much grease. Most likely the bridle is deformed.

Edited February 12 by Kalanag

[Knebo]

On 2/10/2025 at 10:58 AM, joelcarvajal said:

I’m afraid that something is indeed slipping in the gear train.  Actually, I noticed that escape wheel is a bit wobbly but I assumed it is within tolerance.  But it is also possible that the center wheel pinion is also slipping

You really need to look at this first and foremost IF the barrel is indeed moving with the ratchet wheel. 

[nevenbekriev]

We all need to see video of the barrel moving with the ratchet whhel in order to believe.

[joelcarvajal]

I’ll take a video over the weekend and share it.  Thanks for all the replies and support!

Edited February 13 by joelcarvajal

[joelcarvajal]

On 2/14/2025 at 3:27 AM, nevenbekriev said:

We all need to see video of the barrel moving with the ratchet whhel in order to believe.

Here's a link to the video.

 

[GPrideaux]

Great, that confirms that the barrel is turning. But we need to see it from the other side to be able to see just what is happening.  It's something in the train of wheels, so we need to see what the train is doing when the barrel slips.

[nevenbekriev]

Nop, the lid of the barrel is turning.

To be sure, You need to see the teeth of the barrel if they are turning. Or put dot with marker on both the lid and barrel and see if their position one against the other will change.

[Knebo]

1 hour ago, nevenbekriev said:

Nop, the lid of the barrel is turning.

Looks like that indeed! 

@nevenbekriev is known for his good eye..! 

Maybe the mainspring bridle is bent towards the lid and catches it when slipping ? You'll have to open the barrel and maybe you'll see scratch marks from the bridle. 

Edited February 15 by Knebo

[RichardHarris123]

If the barrel lid is rotating, it creates another question, why? They and usually quite tight and shouldn't rotate with just the bridle acting on it.

[nevenbekriev]

18 minutes ago, Knebo said:

@nevenbekriev is known for his good eye..! 

 

For sure such thing can't be seen by eye when watching such video.

This is more like 'thus does the single logic go'. No way that the barrel will turn like this and the watch will work in the same time. If the center wheel pinion is loose, the behavior is totally different and if one has seen it, never will mistake it for something else.

[Knebo]

56 minutes ago, nevenbekriev said:

For sure such thing can't be seen by eye when watching such video.

I think that I see it in the video (as you describe). But I might be imagining it. 

[GPrideaux]

Brilliant. If I zoom in on the video I think I can see that the barrel itself is not turning, just the lid. But a view from the other side where the barrel teeth are visible will confirm it.

Perhaps the barrel lid has not been securely pressed into place.

[AndyGSi]

28 minutes ago, GPrideaux said:

Brilliant. If I zoom in on the video I think I can see that the barrel itself is not turning, just the lid. But a view from the other side where the barrel teeth are visible will confirm it.

Perhaps the barrel lid has not been securely pressed into place.

Yes I agree, and to me it looks like the lid is proud of the barrel.

[joelcarvajal]

On 2/16/2025 at 12:57 AM, nevenbekriev said:

Nop, the lid of the barrel is turning.

To be sure, You need to see the teeth of the barrel if they are turning. Or put dot with marker on both the lid and barrel and see if their position one against the other will change.

You guys are amazing!

I can confirm that the barrel lid is indeed turning and not the barrel itself.  Please refer to the video linked below and focus on the teeth of the barrel not moving even if the lid is moving.

Truth be told, I already ordered a set of train wheels, including the center wheel, thinking that one of the pinions of the wheels have loosened.  I did try to observe the train works for movement but since I cannot see the pinion of the center wheel, I assumed wrongly that it has been damaged.

In this new video, it seems also that I put too much braking grease but the "violent" slipping of the mainspring is gone.  Brings me back to my question how much braking grease is enough.

Note that the barrel lid was also moving when I was just putting four dots of (around 1mm diameter) of braking grease on the barrel walls.  What I did the next time around was to put a thin line of bre\aking grease across the center circumference of the barrel. 

Thank you to all for assisting in the diagnosis.  

 

 

Edited February 18 by joelcarvajal

[Knebo]

5 hours ago, joelcarvajal said:

Truth be told, I already ordered a set of train wheels, including the center wheel, thinking that one of the pinions of the wheels have loosened. 

One big lesson to learn in watch repair is.... patience. I guess, "lesson learnt"  

 

5 hours ago, joelcarvajal said:

I assumed wrongly that it has been damaged

..and one of the most difficult things in watch repair is fault finding.

 

 

Anyway... the behaviour of your barrel lid is definitely quite unusual. I never had this problem.

1. There's definitely too much grease now, as you can see it squeezing out between the barrel and the lid. No grease should be in the "step" of the barrel where the lid goes.

2. Are you sure that the lid is fully pressed into the "step" of the barrel -- all around? Photos from the side of the barrel would help. 

3. Are you sure that the mainspring is correct and not too high (which could prevent the lid from being fully pressed down)? The fact that you found this mainspring in the watch doesn't guarantee that it's correct (a previous watch-destroyer may have put a wrong one).

4. "I was just putting four dots of (around 1mm diameter) of braking grease on the barrel walls" --> this sounds about right to me. I do like to spread out those dots to a thin line, though. It helps prevent that you effectively push down the dots (to the barrel floor) when installing the mainspring.

[AndyGSi]

As you'll need to remove the barrel and clean I suggest as @Knebo
has mentioned you check it's the correct size spring for the movement.

[joelcarvajal]

Good day, everyone!  Just an update.

1) I removed the barrel and cleaned it.  I noticed that the mainspring is not flat anymore causing it to rub on the lid.

2) The barrel lid is really loose inside the barrel and rotates even if it snapped properly  and even without mainspring.  Sorry I wasn’t able to document it.

3) My next step is buy a replacement mainspring as well as a replacement barrel.

Thank you again for all your help.  This is really such a wonderful community.