What is this wheel’s function

[SiZi]

Sorry if this is a dumb question but I’m a first timer trying to repair this 1960s Ebel Cal. 59 ladies watch. I’ve managed to get everything done and put the watch back together, but there is just one issue now - the watch winds but the minutes and hour hand wheels don’t “catch” properly when I turn the crown. They do for a second and then there is “slippage” somewhere. I noticed there is one wheel that goes under the mainspring barrel and it moves a little - it catches the cannon pinion when I assemble it but when I turn the crown they engage but then the large wheel slips out. See pictures below.

 

Edit: I just figured that the crown engages the larger wheel, which in turn is supposed to turn the cannon pinion and thus the minute and hour hands.

Then my questions are:

1. What is that wheel called?

2. Why is that wheel moving around? How do I make it stay in place? 
 

thank you!

Sia

Edited October 11, 2024 by SiZi

[rjenkinsgb]

I'm not familiar with that movement, but I suspect the cannon pinion is just a free-running part fitted on a fixed post & driven from a slipping clutch on the barrel, in that movement?

It appear the post it fits on is mounted on a screw-down plate???

If so, that plate could have some small range of adjustment to control it's position and how it meshes with the two wheels that can drive it - can it be moved nearer the barrel?

Or, is the barrel pivot in the plate worn, so the barrel can move away from the cannon pinion?

This is from an ebay image, showing it without the other wheel covering part of the plate:

 

 

 

[Klassiker]

  On 10/11/2024 at 4:23 AM, SiZi said:

1. What is that wheel called?

2. Why is that wheel moving around? How do I make it stay in place?

Expand  

I don't know what the wheel is called, but like @rjenkinsgb says, it looks like an intermediate wheel mounted on top of the mainspring barrel, and driven through a slipping clutch.

Somewhere there is too much side-shake,m e.g.  the whole barrel in the mainplate or bridge, or between that intermediate wheel and the barrel arbor.

[AndyGSi]

Need a better photo of the complete movement but it looks like the
barrel pivot hole is worn which is letting it move away from the pinion.

[Simeon]

It looks like the intermediate wheel on top of the barrel is displacing sideways underneath the clutch on the top, away from the cannon pinion. The second photo shows more of the barrel exposed underneath the wheel. 

Can you disassemble that wheel from the barrel lid and maybe bend the fingers of the clutch spring downward to apply a bit more pressure to the wheel? It might be swaged onto the barrel arbor and can't be removed - difficult to see. 

[AndyGSi]

Your text has covered a key part showing what the pivot is doing.

Edited October 14, 2024 by AndyGSi

[nevenbekriev]

the pivot and the hole are seen in this picture and it seems they are OK

 

Here is a picture of the barrel, seen there that the 'intermediate wheel' is actually rather tooth crown, the arrow shows the border where the crown ends. And the red circle shows the normal positions of this wheel, see the tops of the teeth just cover the lid outer line.

Then, see the pictures where the teeth of the crown doesn't engage well with the cannon pinion.  The conclusion is that the crown somehow climbs above the edge of it's place and shifts away from the cannon pinion. May be there is too many friction there, like lubrication missing at all.

This construction is common for Roscopf watches and this movement is one.

[AndyGSi]

Just realised looking at the barrel in @nevenbekriev enlarged photo that the
wheel isn't centralised, bigger gap on right than left, unless that's just the angle?

[nevenbekriev]

May be just the light is too much and the border of the barrel can't be seen. Actually, unless one holds the thing in His hands, He can't say nothing for sure. We can only guess.

[SiZi]

Thanks so much for your responses. I understand that the pictures aren’t helping enough so here is a video I made showing the operation of the wheel and its fitting. Sorry about the shaky hands etc but I’m finding it very hard to use a macro lens on my phone and work with my hands at the same time. Here is the video, I hope it helps, and I truly appreciate your time and help - 

 

[nevenbekriev]

@SiZi, the spring has to be riveted. Now it pops out of it's place and does nothing. The barrel assembly must behave as one whole thing, removing the wheel and spring off the lid actually destroys it. You must figure a way to rivet the spring back firmly on it's place. If there is no enough 'meat' left there for riveting, then it will be possible to solder it, but be sure to not let the solder get to the wheel, as it must be able to rotate. The spring must be pressed  as to lie tight on it's place when riveting or soldering. If soldered, the lid then must be perfectly cleaned from flux.

In all cases, lubrication is needed there.

[ManSkirtBrew]

This is so interesting. I'm going to agree with @rjenkinsgb that the spring and ring gear assembly are what provides the friction for time setting and not the cannon pinion.

The video clearly shows that the problem is the spring isn't being held in place properly. It's hard to tell for sure, but it looks like the teeth on the barrel that are supposed to engage with the spring are sheared off. It almost looks like they're shaped to be ratcheting teeth, but I think @nevenbekriev is correct and it was originally riveted and we're looking at damage from removing the spring, or extreme wear.

If it were me, I'd be looking for a donor movement. I found a listing at Jules Borel, which has some part numbers that might be helpful in your search.

Edit: also this listing at Emmywatch may be useful.

Edit edit: this looks an awful lot like it. Just double check the interchange.

Edited October 14, 2024 by ManSkirtBrew

[AndyGSi]

Not sure where in the world you are but this looks correct from the compatible list.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/124569945940?ff3=2&toolid=10044&customid=&lgeo=1&vectorid=229466&item=124569945940&ufes_redirect=true

or there are a few donor movements you could look at.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/234792274074?ff3=2&toolid=10044&customid=&lgeo=1&vectorid=229466&item=234792274074&ufes_redirect=true

[SiZi]

This is super helpful! I have been pursuing the ebay seller to consider shipping to me in India but she is very reluctant. If that doesn’t work then I will order the Zodiac 10 part and keep my fingers crossed for fit. Thank you so much AndyGsi and Manskirtbrew, I wouldn’t have figured this out without your help. This forum never disappoints! 

[SiZi]

I’ve got a replacement barrel and lid from cousins - the favre leuba movement parts are compatible  Thanks so much for the help everyone!