Jump to content

Felsa 1560 - movement issue.

apandersP

By apandersP
in Fault Finding / Fault Diagnosis

 Share

Recommended Posts

apandersP Watch Enthusiast

apandersP

Posted
Posted

Hello again.. 

I just serviced this movement. First ever movement to service. 
I had it running pretty good (before regulated it) yesterday (see attached photo)

But of cause I forgot to put in the screw that secure the winding stem in place.. it’s placed under the bridge, and that bridge is a pain in the a$£ to set in. I took it apart again, and after reassembly it runs bad. It’s like it doesn’t take my winding. 
 

When I take the little metal piece (photo attached) that hold the mainspring winded, nothing happens. So I guess that’s a sign of maybe a bad mainspring? Only the upper wheel on the mainspring barrel is turning when winding, is that right? (Also photo attached) 

Watch is cleaned by hand in IPA and oiled. 

 

IMG_3813.jpeg

IMG_3823.jpeg

IMG_3822.jpeg

Nucejoe Distinguished Member

Nucejoe

Posted
Posted (edited)

Check if ratchet wheel rubs on barrel bridge. 

Possible cause, 

Ratchet wheel's centre square hole ,dislodged from barrel arbour square shoulder. 

 

Edited by Nucejoe
correction
  • Like 1
apandersP Watch Enthusiast

apandersP

Posted
  • Author
Posted
  On 9/13/2024 at 4:37 PM, Nucejoe said:

Check if ratchet wheel rubs on barrel bridge. 

Possible cause, 

Ratchet wheel's centre square hole ,dislodged from barrel arbour square shoulder. 

 

Expand  

Så both should spin? While winding? This rachet wheel is a bit different than what else I’ve seen. 
 

IMG_3827.jpeg

Nucejoe Distinguished Member

Nucejoe

Posted
Posted (edited)

First image- Ratchet wheel's center hole is square.

Second image-Barrel arbour square shoulder too.

 

In your watch ratchet wheel has jumped out of place, therefor ratchet wheel has sat unlevel, thus ratchet  wheel rubs on barrel bridge.

image.png.d0af2ed07aadef4a9931a77c47b7778f.png

image.png

Edited by Nucejoe
Adding explanation
apandersP Watch Enthusiast

apandersP

Posted
  • Author
Posted
  On 9/13/2024 at 4:57 PM, Nucejoe said:

1- Ratchet wheel's center hole is square.

2-Barrel arbour square shoulder too, is square.

Should fit on right.

In your watch ratchet wheel has jumped out of place, therefor ratchet wheel has sat unlevel, thus the wheel rubs on barrel bridge.

image.png.d0af2ed07aadef4a9931a77c47b7778f.png

image.png

Expand  

It looks similar to this one. Is it still the same principal? 
 

 

IMG_3828.jpeg

Also recognized that the hair spring looks a bit odd? 

IMG_3829.png

Nucejoe Distinguished Member

Nucejoe

Posted
Posted
  On 9/13/2024 at 5:11 PM, apandersP said:

It looks similar to this one. Is it still the same principal? 
 

 

IMG_3828.jpeg

Expand  

Yes its the same principle. 

Design of the hole in your watch,  is proof of the designers over excitement.

Above diag of mine is solid.

  On 9/13/2024 at 5:11 PM, apandersP said:

Also recognized that the hair spring looks a bit odd? 

IMG_3829.png

Expand  

What do you find odd about it? 

 Its not  an overcoil ,  Is it ? 

 As long as the coil of hairspring is flat, concentric,  level and circles are evenly spaced, you have a good coil.

You didn't choose an easy one to work on, but thats OK.

 

 

Neverenoughwatches Distinguished Member

Neverenoughwatches

Posted
Posted
  On 9/13/2024 at 2:58 PM, apandersP said:

Hello again.. 

I just serviced this movement. First ever movement to service. 
I had it running pretty good (before regulated it) yesterday (see attached photo)

But of cause I forgot to put in the screw that secure the winding stem in place.. it’s placed under the bridge, and that bridge is a pain in the a$£ to set in. I took it apart again, and after reassembly it runs bad. It’s like it doesn’t take my winding. 
 

When I take the little metal piece (photo attached) that hold the mainspring winded, nothing happens. So I guess that’s a sign of maybe a bad mainspring? Only the upper wheel on the mainspring barrel is turning when winding, is that right? (Also photo attached) 

Watch is cleaned by hand in IPA and oiled. 

 

IMG_3813.jpeg

IMG_3823.jpeg

IMG_3822.jpeg

Expand  

Do you have the auto works for this movement ?

apandersP Watch Enthusiast

apandersP

Posted
  • Author
Posted
  On 9/13/2024 at 6:33 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

Do you have the auto works for this movement ?

Expand  

Yes. But that’s a whole other story. It seems like the mechanism that attaches it to the movement, is not working. It kind of a spring with a small lever to push down. 

  On 9/13/2024 at 5:30 PM, Nucejoe said:

Yes its the same principle. 

Design of the hole in your watch,  is proof of the designers over excitement.

Above diag of mine is solid.

What do you find odd about it? 

 Its not  an overcoil ,  Is it ? 

 As long as the coil of hairspring is flat, concentric,  level and circles are evenly spaced, you have a good coil.

You didn't choose an easy one to work on, but thats OK.

 

 

Expand  

Will get some better photos when I get home to the watch again. Just to be sure that it’s okay. Because that bridge for the train

of wheels is a pain to get back. And the mainspring barrel is under there😂

it’s not an easy movement, I found out of that working on it. Actually I don’t think it’s too hard, but I definitely need a lot more experience with trouble shooting and stuff like that. I was so happy when I’ve got that Timegrapher reading after servicing the watch. It was a total mess before I got into the watch. First watch serviced, so I was happy. But that happiness fast got away😂

Neverenoughwatches Distinguished Member

Neverenoughwatches

Posted
Posted
  On 9/13/2024 at 6:42 PM, apandersP said:

Yes. But that’s a whole other story. It seems like the mechanism that attaches it to the movement, is not working. It kind of a spring with a small lever to push down. 

Will get some better photos when I get home to the watch again. Just to be sure that it’s okay. Because that bridge for the train

of wheels is a pain to get back. And the mainspring barrel is under there😂

it’s not an easy movement, I found out of that working on it. Actually I don’t think it’s too hard, but I definitely need a lot more experience with trouble shooting and stuff like that. I was so happy when I’ve got that Timegrapher reading after servicing the watch. It was a total mess before I got into the watch. First watch serviced, so I was happy. But that happiness fast got away😂

Expand  

What you have here is an interesting historical watch, the first two directional rotor automatic wind movement, known as the Bidynator. Be good to get this back up to working and keeping time. 

apandersP Watch Enthusiast

apandersP

Posted
  • Author
Posted
  On 9/13/2024 at 7:09 PM, Neverenoughwatches said:

What you have here is an interesting historical watch, the first two directional rotor automatic wind movement, known as the Bidynator. Be good to get this back up to working and keeping time. 

Expand  

I’m trying the best I can. I will show more info and photos when I get back home, and hopefully I can find the issue, with help from the good people here 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Nucejoe Distinguished Member

Nucejoe

Posted
Posted
  On 9/13/2024 at 6:20 PM, apandersP said:

Seems like anything is good. It might be me damaging the hairspring… 

I guess that’s how I learn😂

IMG_3830.jpeg

Expand  

 Sorting out hairspring in place is not a good idea if your a beginner. Removing the balance complete ( if you feel confident) gives you a chance to see the coil, check pivots and make sure all is OK. 

Provide a side and top view of the hairspring coil, we might see faults that you now miss, and show you how to correct it.

Felsa made good movements, this is the first stupid design of theirs I ever saw. 

Had it been a standard ratchet wheel, your watch would be ticking now.

No worry, take your time , ask questions and let us work with you to fix your watch. 

Best wishes.

  • Like 2
apandersP Watch Enthusiast

apandersP

Posted
  • Author
Posted
  On 9/13/2024 at 8:20 PM, rehajm said:

In situ the coils do not appear centered. Let’s see more pictures, preferably in and out of the watch if possible…

Expand  

I can definitely take it out and take photos. Will do that Sunday. I had this movement completely apart for cleaning and lubrication. So that’s no problem taking out the balance.

i will post it here when it’s done 

apandersP Watch Enthusiast

apandersP

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Here is some photos. Please let me know if anything else is needed. 

IMG_3858.jpeg

IMG_3859.jpeg

IMG_3860.jpeg

IMG_3871.jpeg

IMG_3870.jpeg

IMG_3867.jpeg

  On 9/13/2024 at 7:49 PM, Nucejoe said:

 Sorting out hairspring in place is not a good idea if your a beginner. Removing the balance complete ( if you feel confident) gives you a chance to see the coil, check pivots and make sure all is OK. 

Provide a side and top view of the hairspring coil, we might see faults that you now miss, and show you how to correct it.

Felsa made good movements, this is the first stupid design of theirs I ever saw. 

Had it been a standard ratchet wheel, your watch would be ticking now.

No worry, take your time , ask questions and let us work with you to fix your watch. 

Best wishes.

Expand  


thanks so much! I posted some photos 

apandersP Watch Enthusiast

apandersP

Posted
  • Author
Posted

I think I know what it is now. I seems like a barrel issue. I can’t get the mainspring to catch on the harbor. It’s not tight against it. I can’t bend it into place, then it just expand out again.

apandersP Watch Enthusiast

apandersP

Posted
  • Author
Posted
  On 9/16/2024 at 9:50 AM, Neverenoughwatches said:

Are you saying the arbor hook comes out of the mainspring eye shortly after starting to wind ?

Expand  

I think that’s the case. It also feels like it, when I got the barrel complete in my hand, and trying to wind the upper wheel. It feels like it grabs it in the start, but quickly stops grabbing again. 

Neverenoughwatches Distinguished Member

Neverenoughwatches

Posted
Posted
  On 9/16/2024 at 10:52 AM, AndyGSi said:

The problem with these is the arbor is part of the lid so you can't see how it interacts with the spring.

Expand  

I've delt with a few that had the arbor integrated into the lid, from memory were Kienzle and Kasper so German movements. The ratchet may also have formed part of the whole assembly, not an impressive design, somewhat all wonkyfied. But yes a bit difficult to see whats going on inside in barrel .

AndyGSi Distinguished Member

AndyGSi

Posted
Posted
  On 9/16/2024 at 11:45 AM, Neverenoughwatches said:

I've delt with a few that had the arbor integrated into the lid, from memory were Kienzle and Kasper so German movements. The ratchet may also have formed part of the whole assembly, not an impressive design, somewhat all wonkyfied. But yes a bit difficult to see whats going on inside in barrel .

Expand  

Yes, lid, ratchet and arbor are all one piece.

  • Like 1

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
 Share
Go to topic listing


×
×
  • Create New...