Budget watch cleaning problems

[JohnL]

Thank you both. Amazon UK want £33 for 5L of IPA. Most won't ship here. Cheaper than from a pharmacy, still more expensive than it would have been pre brexit. Plenty of time to find something that works; it's a hobby. If I can get something cheaper great, if I can't then eighteen euro isn't going to break the bank. I've got to weigh up the fact that I'm not doing a watch that often against what it turns out you end up spending on what you thought was a cheap watch. A watch a month is still cheaper than a therapist or a night out  

[Neverenoughwatches]

13 minutes ago, JohnL said:

Thank you both. Amazon UK want £33 for 5L of IPA. Most won't ship here. Cheaper than from a pharmacy, still more expensive than it would have been pre brexit. Plenty of time to find something that works; it's a hobby. If I can get something cheaper great, if I can't then eighteen euro isn't going to break the bank. I've got to weigh up the fact that I'm not doing a watch that often against what it turns out you end up spending on what you thought was a cheap watch. A watch a month is still cheaper than a therapist or a night out  

If you're not using water for cleaning then brake cleaner will  work fine as an overall cleaning solution. The Kerosene will do a better job of lifting oil and grease then a quick rinse in brake cleaner to swill the Kerosene off. Both should be available just about anywhere, its just a heating oil and a car maintenance consumable. 

I'll do a mirror test later today to show you any residue left. On the parts there doesn't seem to be any. Theres an experiment i did a few months ago on 7 different solutions, will be somewhere in the archives, cant remember if it was my thread or i tagged it on to another.

Found it, strangely enough i didn't test the brake cleaner ?

https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/29710-cleaning-tiny-springs/?do=findComment&comment=252145

[HectorLooi]

If you can get odorless kerosene, that is even nicer. Almost no odor at all.

I'm thinking of swiching to IPA for my final rinse as benzine really stinks. I'm also switching to hexane for cleaning hairsprings.

[JohnL]

@Neverenoughwatches Thank you. Very good of you to post that, and very interesting. Very interesting indeed. 

[RichardHarris123]

Several weeks ago I waiting for a puncture repair, guess what I spent my time doing?  Looking at cleaning products, solvents, polishes etc. 

[AxelSLK]

Wo this thread just took of. Really love the engagement in the watchmaking community even though I have just briefly scratched the surface.

So before I decided on trying the distilled water and soap, I was trying to to figure out what all these types of naphtha, hexane, lighter fluid etc really is.

 

 l live in sweden and I couldn’t really find a good translation for the different detergents and I was really afraid of buying the wrong ones with for example added oils that could be worse than just soap. Any ideas on what to look for in data sheets or similar so I know I get the right stuff? 
 

I did find some chemically clean benzine or similar but it was usually around 10euro for a 125ml bottle which felt a bit expensive imo so I decided on the soap just to try it. 
 

I did find something that I think you guys call kerosene now when I searched for it so might give it a try. In swedish it seems to be commonly called as lighter oil or similar so sounds a bit iffy haha. Any tips on how to find a “good one” compared to a “bad one”

[AndyGSi]

Have a look for something like this.

https://www.amazon.se/-/en/Zippo-Lighter-Fluid-Original-Petrol/dp/B0736WVF46

https://www.amazon.se/-/en/Naphtha-500ml/dp/B0CRZ61G9J/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1ZQ3GE3QEZFYY&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.HcvQu_vyRj6s-6IsVrdsL1n_a1Mp8UIwUknfig59OcNb1iQXymjU4eNfyyty7TldX83MDY1FrMyvJ-AFsdT0c3LbTUSMVGcQa2Q4-Z1PbAumQMNRQfiUe_wRQ_hfsKy45xCFP53uGc2Q2VEzxpvDRx9qtBWs1XAw9c9766ui4HznSr1_dnMaWc34Xa5367aDVlGsibudbQlP9eRxGZpM3JhJvzL-D9V6clxpzdDsqmg7t3HUn98oscx0e6KTYXLZl0hXnMRAVDClefmG_s3d0Q.aLYsiKtIg0nWF9YI0DcLd_KYc00O_uhEYtfE0SMTcTM&dib_tag=se&keywords=naphtha&qid=1723200248&sprefix=naphtha%2Caps%2C66&sr=8-2

Edited August 9, 2024 by AndyGSi

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Several weeks ago I waiting for a puncture repair, guess what I spent my time doing?  Looking at cleaning products, solvents, polishes etc. 

Sad Richard very sad .

44 minutes ago, AxelSLK said:

Wo this thread just took of. Really love the engagement in the watchmaking community even though I have just briefly scratched the surface.

So before I decided on trying the distilled water and soap, I was trying to to figure out what all these types of naphtha, hexane, lighter fluid etc really is.

 

 l live in sweden and I couldn’t really find a good translation for the different detergents and I was really afraid of buying the wrong ones with for example added oils that could be worse than just soap. Any ideas on what to look for in data sheets or similar so I know I get the right stuff? 
 

I did find some chemically clean benzine or similar but it was usually around 10euro for a 125ml bottle which felt a bit expensive imo so I decided on the soap just to try it. 
 

I did find something that I think you guys call kerosene now when I searched for it so might give it a try. In swedish it seems to be commonly called as lighter oil or similar so sounds a bit iffy haha. Any tips on how to find a “good one” compared to a “bad one”

In UK we use Paraffin as a heating oil, as far as research shows its similar to Kerosene , one may be a little more processed. These and the ones you mentioned are varieties of processed petroleum, used for different things. What i look at is the carbon to hydrogen proportions, a more hydrogen percentage structure will evaporate faster, light distilled label will indicate that. Heavier carbon structured varieties are slow to dry, they sit and wet surfaces, Paraffin does this surprisingly quick, probably why it shifts oil and grease so well. I guess like food,maybe pure/raw is better, you want something with no added ingredients that do something other than dissolve. 

[Malocchio]

You can get pretty far with IPA and manual cleaning and finishing with a cheap ultrasonic as I did before. I found cleaning pinion leaves the most challenging part. IPA is not a very good degreaser but it's relatively odourless and safe and evaporates fast without residue so I find it very user friendly. For shellaced parts I used Renata which is some kind of a hydrocarbon. I still sometimes soak balance and pallet fork in Renata.

[JohnL]

1 hour ago, Malocchio said:

I found cleaning pinion leaves the most challenging part.

Interesting you should mention that. I suspect it may be an issue with a watch I've just taken apart again. Assuming no Jacot tool, how do people clean pinions, or hold wheels safely while cleaning them. I'm pushing them carefully into pith and rotating them, but holding the wheels while doing this isn't always straightforward. Do people just hold them in plastic tipped or brass tweezers and just be careful? I was thinking of some cleaning compound on the flattened end of some peg wood, but again the question of holding the wheels comes up. Coincidentally WeekendWatchRepair's most recent video shows him using a version of this https://www.esslinger.com/silicone-polishing-pin-set-with-mandrel-2mm/. Looked interesting, though I don't know what the equivalent is on Cousins.

[Neverenoughwatches]

Again this is completely fresh from the tub Elma pro waterless placed on to a mirror, dried for 3 mins and then attempt to wipe it off , same result as my previous experiment leaving a nice sticky mess. Second photo is IPA on top and then dried for 10 seconds, is this crap going into my IPA rinse jar ?

3 minutes ago, JohnL said:

Interesting you should mention that. I suspect it may be an issue with a watch I've just taken apart again. Assuming no Jacot tool, how do people clean pinions, or hold wheels safely while cleaning them. I'm pushing them carefully into pith and rotating them, but holding the wheels while doing this isn't always straightforward. Do people just hold them in plastic tipped or brass tweezers and just be careful? I was thinking of some cleaning compound on the flattened end of some peg wood, but again the question of holding the wheels comes up. Coincidentally WeekendWatchRepair's most recent video shows him using a version of this https://www.esslinger.com/silicone-polishing-pin-set-with-mandrel-2mm/. Looked interesting, though I don't know what the equivalent is on Cousins.

Pinion leaves John, i think you're talking about pivots. Careful with the pin polishers, they're not to be used excessively,  they can reduce a pivot's diameter and shape. I do use the occasionally .

If the leaves are well grimy i soak in paraffin for an hour and then use a sharp toothpick/bamboo/pegwood /wooden weapon of choice soaked also in paraffin.  Handling the wheels is fine with tweezers, brass or titanium if you feel more comfortable with soft tweezers.

[JohnL]

10 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Pinion leaves John, i think you're talking about pivots

Doh! Indeed I am. Thanks for the correction, and the advice. I can appreciate that caution is required with them.

[AxelSLK]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Sad Richard very sad .

In UK we use Paraffin as a heating oil, as far as research shows its similar to Kerosene , one may be a little more processed. These and the ones you mentioned are varieties of processed petroleum, used for different things. What i look at is the carbon to hydrogen proportions, a more hydrogen percentage structure will evaporate faster, light distilled label will indicate that. Heavier carbon structured varieties are slow to dry, they sit and wet surfaces, Paraffin does this surprisingly quick, probably why it shifts oil and grease so well. I guess like food,maybe pure/raw is better, you want something with no added ingredients that do something other than dissolve. 

So I found a few options from a manufacturer that is easily available in sweden called Kemetyl. (Huge plus imo if it’s easy to find in local stores)

T-lamp oil = Intended for inside use which could be a plus if it is less odor if it works as good as anything else

T-Tenol = some fuel containing metanol and etanol

T-“stove fuel”?? = some type of bio-etanol from what I can tell. Think this one could be the closest to kerosene but I feel like I seriously have no clue

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

8 minutes ago, JohnL said:

Doh! Indeed I am. Thanks for the correction, and the advice. I can appreciate that caution is required with them.

Here is the mirror test i promised no1. Brake cleaner no2 IPA . The ipa may have been a slightly larger drop, brake cleaner evaporated much quicker and left some staining but not as thick as the ipa, the ipa wet the surface where the brake cleaner just wanted to vanish. 

[caseback]

Have you tried the mirror test with the elma rinse as well?

[Neverenoughwatches]

3 hours ago, AxelSLK said:

Wo this thread just took of. Really love the engagement in the watchmaking community even though I have just briefly scratched the surface.

Thats what we do here Axel, help and support each other, banter and take the mick when we have developed a good repport with someone. We dont judge and have great moderators and regulars that dont stand any nonsense if anyone oversteps the mark. This is how all forums should be but sadly not.

16 minutes ago, caseback said:

Have you tried the mirror test with the elma rinse as well?

Not the rinse no caseback , only ever used IPA for rinsing, I would think it works in conjunction with Elma cleaners and better than IPA. 

The stubborn smudge might be an aspect of the ammonia in the cleaner and the rinse may neutralise that ? Still its something that is being added to the Elma rinse particularly if the baskets aren't spun off adequately,  something a US user probably isn't doing.

[SwissSeiko]

I will chime in again, but cleaning methods are just as divisive as oil conversations. I think there is a tendency to over complicate the cleaning methods, chemicals ect. in watchmaking. As someone who does this for a living, I will lay out my method below, and you can use it, or learn from it, or tell me I'm wrong, but its what I do everyday and I've had very little issues:

Fill the ultrasonic cleaner with distilled water and I think 1-2% solution of Liquinox. Its a very small amount.

Set the temp to 30C, and a time of 8 min. Be sure to do a degass cycle before hand.

Then into a container of distilled water as a rinse. You can run it in the ultrasonic again.

Then into IPA, then onto a cotton based card stock, with a small fan blowing across.

Pallet forks and balance get a Naptha treatment by hand. Can be rinsed in distilled water, then into IPA, but this isn't always necessary.

 

Liquinox is a very cheap water cleaning solution, and since switching from other cleaning methods that use different containers to contain cleaning solutions, this is much faster, easier, and cheaper. I can do 3 or 4 movements in a batch, and it will have used $0.18 of cleaning solution. I use a jar for distilled water rinse, as I change it after every movement. IPA gets changed often, as does Naptha, but these are in very small containers, maybe 30ml or so. People don't change solutions often enough, and if you see any buildup on the surface of your naptha, you're already too late. Its been contaminated.

[JohnL]

@SwissSeiko That's very good to know, aside from the use of Liquinox, surprisingly similar to what I've been doing. 

Dare I ask how you wash a movement in just 30ml of IPA? I'm guessing you're not using small baskets to separate the parts into groups as you're more used to them and know where they all go without thinking?

[Neverenoughwatches]

25 minutes ago, SwissSeiko said:

I will chime in again, but cleaning methods are just as divisive as oil conversations. I think there is a tendency to over complicate the cleaning methods, chemicals ect. in watchmaking. As someone who does this for a living, I will lay out my method below, and you can use it, or learn from it, or tell me I'm wrong, but its what I do everyday and I've had very little issues:

Fill the ultrasonic cleaner with distilled water and I think 1-2% solution of Liquinox. Its a very small amount.

Set the temp to 30C, and a time of 8 min. Be sure to do a degass cycle before hand.

Then into a container of distilled water as a rinse. You can run it in the ultrasonic again.

Then into IPA, then onto a cotton based card stock, with a small fan blowing across.

Pallet forks and balance get a Naptha treatment by hand. Can be rinsed in distilled water, then into IPA, but this isn't always necessary.

 

Liquinox is a very cheap water cleaning solution, and since switching from other cleaning methods that use different containers to contain cleaning solutions, this is much faster, easier, and cheaper. I can do 3 or 4 movements in a batch, and it will have used $0.18 of cleaning solution. I use a jar for distilled water rinse, as I change it after every movement. IPA gets changed often, as does Naptha, but these are in very small containers, maybe 30ml or so. People don't change solutions often enough, and if you see any buildup on the surface of your naptha, you're already too late. Its been contaminated.

The cleaning solution is used directly in the sonic bath and the mesh baskets are placed in the bath not in a jar for the first clean ?

[SwissSeiko]

26 minutes ago, JohnL said:

@SwissSeiko That's very good to know, aside from the use of Liquinox, surprisingly similar to what I've been doing. 

Dare I ask how you wash a movement in just 30ml of IPA? I'm guessing you're not using small baskets to separate the parts into groups as you're more used to them and know where they all go without thinking?

Its probably more than that. Its a small 4oz jar I use, and its maybe a 1/4 full. So probably more like 30-60ml. I use the tiny baskets, that are 10-ish mm in diameter. they are small, but they go in, usually 4 at a time, then the larger pieces go in individually.

2 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The cleaning solution is used directly in the sonic bath and the mesh baskets are placed in the bath not in a jar for the first clean ?

Yes, no jar for the first clean. I will run the movements through first, then cases and bracelets after. Then swap the solution. 

 

I should mention, in particularly dirty movements with excess oil and grease, I will pre clean the plates and barrel in naptha.

[Neverenoughwatches]

4 minutes ago, SwissSeiko said:

Its probably more than that. Its a small 4oz jar I use, and its maybe a 1/4 full. So probably more like 30-60ml. I use the tiny baskets, that are 10-ish mm in diameter. they are small, but they go in, usually 4 at a time, then the larger pieces go in individually.

Yes, no jar for the first clean. I will run the movements through first, then cases and bracelets after. Then swap the solution. 

 

I should mention, in particularly dirty movements with excess oil and grease, I will pre clean the plates and barrel in naptha.

Unfortunately not available in the UK unless expensively shipped

6 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

If you can get odorless kerosene, that is even nicer. Almost no odor at all.

I'm thinking of swiching to IPA for my final rinse as benzine really stinks. I'm also switching to hexane for cleaning hairsprings.

It is available in UK but almost 3x the cost of regular smelly.

[caseback]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

The stubborn smudge might be an aspect of the ammonia in the cleaner and the rinse may neutralise that ? Still its something that is being added to the Elma rinse particularly if the baskets aren't spun off adequately,  something a US user probably isn't doing.

I believe the Elma wash & rinse and simular products of other brands were originally intended to be used in spinning machines with wash-rinse-rinse-dry stations, like the Elma Super Elite I'm fortunate enough to have. I don't suppose that there were any ultrasonic cleaning machines available at the time these machines were made.

[JohnL]

I've posted more than my fair share on this particular topic, but if I may ask a question as a complete newbie: What's the recognised way of saying thanks for helpful advice and information? I've seen that there is a reputation score, how's that accrued?

[tomh207]

33 minutes ago, JohnL said:

I've posted more than my fair share on this particular topic, but if I may ask a question as a complete newbie: What's the recognised way of saying thanks for helpful advice and information? I've seen that there is a reputation score, how's that accrued?

Hi John,

there is a thumbs up like button on every post (except your own ), using this to like a particular useful post is what accrues onto the reputation score.

 

Tom

[AndyGSi]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Unfortunately not available in the UK unless expensively shipped

What's not available?