watch cleaning machine What to look out for when buying a used watch cleaning machine?

[Pap3r]

Hello everyone,

I hope you're all doing well.

I'm currently searching for a used, most likely will be vintage, watch cleaning machine locally. Any advice on what to look for in such a machine would be greatly appreciated. 

I recently came across an Elma Record Watch Cleaning Machine being sold by a seller [picture attached], but it appears to be in rough condition. Initially, I was interested in it for the motor, which reportedly works. However, the seller mentioned that scrap dealers were offering more, and after a brief negotiation, he stopped communication and blocked me lol. Interestingly, the seller later relisted it at a lower price than what I had offered ($10 equivalent).

I appreciate everyone's input and tips, thank you! 

[oldhippy]

What you are showing most of it is missing.

Just looked on ebay this is the best machine I ever had. I have had a few machines in my time.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285902116112?itmmeta=01J0EW3685DS3DXFT0YK1M6CRW&hash=item4291181510:g:eRgAAOSwKBpmZsMW&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA0KMFnc%2BwDg6kFufauQZxMmo%2FXMOZUb8B8ZtxalJPVcGZYl0sjSXjgIHEyZ0dvGY57wsEJupTrvZkGyRH5A8KGf8GYSzSXE1F8VMaR5oJYP%2FgVmvU5QSidrbXULj3h1iqvptGXGVfko2HM%2BWKK5XSOE9Ek1FPwkVOi9p%2FbmX7FAp7Cr0GbUjAovPOI1QZdyc7ChZLNJiGQAsjfz4FzJAz8mvLKL2xwXGtbmhYf4l0BU7gQRLQ%2BHfKogEt5AO3xlR2F6fZxjNi5iB3W4RY7n7HniE%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR5bkjNyDZA

There is also this one. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/176424434347?itmmeta=01J0EW3685CBSTMC6HZCD24VJA&hash=item2913b73aab:g:WcIAAOSwm-ZmS3vn&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA0G7k%2FSuYiX%2Fhn1xO9kSpOZnqO525%2FC29sG7K0LRkRyzClvecttiEGFWe4ZOrXR42I6LCP9RSWPjnOdr3wzuhofuIAI%2FUhHq2VwPDTLpy5M%2FATDlCvUueqPlNL9%2FXBOJx8HpxavHbrw%2Bz3%2FW9YOil2nq5U%2BRfu10yBilLrFeJeCi8kZL6gcrIOnReTuh1tO%2F4XG0uVDr0Y9Vze27CMKpR2cb8I%2Fqyt%2FHVXS2tMu7x%2FJTfOTzw85wzUpt5WeVLCcV7MKpGytwVesyPs9t4g05KWLk%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR5LkjNyDZA

Another 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/196429850292?itmmeta=01J0EW3686SKPN1WSF129KR20N&hash=item2dbc21a6b4:g:~7kAAOSw41pmYXfG&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8Cj5grIbnKC5SFi%2B0%2B83GgokdKXHur9QvJ%2FKnte%2FDar5L9PoB%2BFs%2BcOti9BkDgCd7r9vBSG%2BINHCtprmUtKJC%2BA%2BPKBEQbgYVt3mp3VVi%2Bk4sX6%2BlrwoSZD5wW8btH8YRQbvBTo1y%2BfAZWhBN7dBbOncVlsDPeIQnxhoX27onRA0cOkqJwaB95xhK9lIUZ1qHeMb8J58cmLfmy4dt7HuQOMQ%2BIJCz9Yd96Kw1SyprG90yB2wCUd4dshpzK0z1cSX7dvHPy7ZTn1GJL2Zs%2B1j630ZPwEeSwTsxDtKUuLTyPx20SE37XD%2Fllg2llakO7AH7g%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR5jkjNyDZA

More https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/176410156286?itmmeta=01J0EW3686RHQ5CNHDSSZ17QW0&hash=item2912dd5cfe:g:nJIAAOSwnztmYEVF&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA0I56oof2IHqmGAwUUoqpoIM971obYtQeElg%2B7X8PL9CG7PXDtCKgovcgq7uu5OcLTmZRDSf3qiSuZUxZKafLo08I4OHEYDa3uMi4jKcAYZJq2M3kDK3utnODNLx9VN0swZqGi7KVdVzrAMV7V4UCF7eUBpAYJizdbSyxbnCgnAStxQEdBuBroTbPzj6%2B79HetBmFknueT9%2BfLRePi6y0LMN0VsDG3yEstvRHKW%2BlC5LNWgWnweQwAy8qDPKW9lfFRnI%2FDzLbLI3yCPT3NClmGYQ%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR5jkjNyDZA

Make sure it comes with the jars and basket. Members on here have restored some dilapidated machines and the look like new.

 

[Pap3r]

10 hours ago, oldhippy said:

What you are showing most of it is missing.

Just looked on ebay this is the best machine I ever had. I have had a few machines in my time.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285902116112?itmmeta=01J0EW3685DS3DXFT0YK1M6CRW&hash=item4291181510:g:eRgAAOSwKBpmZsMW&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA0KMFnc%2BwDg6kFufauQZxMmo%2FXMOZUb8B8ZtxalJPVcGZYl0sjSXjgIHEyZ0dvGY57wsEJupTrvZkGyRH5A8KGf8GYSzSXE1F8VMaR5oJYP%2FgVmvU5QSidrbXULj3h1iqvptGXGVfko2HM%2BWKK5XSOE9Ek1FPwkVOi9p%2FbmX7FAp7Cr0GbUjAovPOI1QZdyc7ChZLNJiGQAsjfz4FzJAz8mvLKL2xwXGtbmhYf4l0BU7gQRLQ%2BHfKogEt5AO3xlR2F6fZxjNi5iB3W4RY7n7HniE%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR5bkjNyDZA

There is also this one. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/176424434347?itmmeta=01J0EW3685CBSTMC6HZCD24VJA&hash=item2913b73aab:g:WcIAAOSwm-ZmS3vn&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA0G7k%2FSuYiX%2Fhn1xO9kSpOZnqO525%2FC29sG7K0LRkRyzClvecttiEGFWe4ZOrXR42I6LCP9RSWPjnOdr3wzuhofuIAI%2FUhHq2VwPDTLpy5M%2FATDlCvUueqPlNL9%2FXBOJx8HpxavHbrw%2Bz3%2FW9YOil2nq5U%2BRfu10yBilLrFeJeCi8kZL6gcrIOnReTuh1tO%2F4XG0uVDr0Y9Vze27CMKpR2cb8I%2Fqyt%2FHVXS2tMu7x%2FJTfOTzw85wzUpt5WeVLCcV7MKpGytwVesyPs9t4g05KWLk%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR5LkjNyDZA

Another 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/196429850292?itmmeta=01J0EW3686SKPN1WSF129KR20N&hash=item2dbc21a6b4:g:~7kAAOSw41pmYXfG&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8Cj5grIbnKC5SFi%2B0%2B83GgokdKXHur9QvJ%2FKnte%2FDar5L9PoB%2BFs%2BcOti9BkDgCd7r9vBSG%2BINHCtprmUtKJC%2BA%2BPKBEQbgYVt3mp3VVi%2Bk4sX6%2BlrwoSZD5wW8btH8YRQbvBTo1y%2BfAZWhBN7dBbOncVlsDPeIQnxhoX27onRA0cOkqJwaB95xhK9lIUZ1qHeMb8J58cmLfmy4dt7HuQOMQ%2BIJCz9Yd96Kw1SyprG90yB2wCUd4dshpzK0z1cSX7dvHPy7ZTn1GJL2Zs%2B1j630ZPwEeSwTsxDtKUuLTyPx20SE37XD%2Fllg2llakO7AH7g%3D%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR5jkjNyDZA

More https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/176410156286?itmmeta=01J0EW3686RHQ5CNHDSSZ17QW0&hash=item2912dd5cfe:g:nJIAAOSwnztmYEVF&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA0I56oof2IHqmGAwUUoqpoIM971obYtQeElg%2B7X8PL9CG7PXDtCKgovcgq7uu5OcLTmZRDSf3qiSuZUxZKafLo08I4OHEYDa3uMi4jKcAYZJq2M3kDK3utnODNLx9VN0swZqGi7KVdVzrAMV7V4UCF7eUBpAYJizdbSyxbnCgnAStxQEdBuBroTbPzj6%2B79HetBmFknueT9%2BfLRePi6y0LMN0VsDG3yEstvRHKW%2BlC5LNWgWnweQwAy8qDPKW9lfFRnI%2FDzLbLI3yCPT3NClmGYQ%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR5jkjNyDZA

Make sure it comes with the jars and basket. Members on here have restored some dilapidated machines and the look like new.

 

Thank you! I will take a look and see if I can get similar locally. I am speaking to another seller who sells vintage tools. It seems his father was a watchmaker since the 1950s. He said he has 3 potential machines for me, and that their spinning function works, but heating is no longer functioning. How much does that affect the value of a cleaner? It should be repairable with a modern PTC heating element right?

I am not sure how much he will want for one of them. I might offer him depending on the machine, a price based on historical local listings for watch cleaning machines. For context, an Elma Super Elite w/o timer was sold for R1130 or $62/£49 in 2019, pictured below. While the lowest, a vintage National Electric which heating function didn't work for R230 or $13/£6, and highest was a beefy Fuji Auto Cleaner CL-101 for R2330 or $127/£100, also pictured below. So I am going to wait and see when he sends me pictures over email, and hopefully I can get a decently student priced watch cleaning machine. I have played with the idea of making my own, based of old Elma designs before.

 

[Pap3r]

But in context of currency, a local Big Mac from McDonalds is $2.83/£2.23/€2.64 equivalent. 

So the seller got back to me. Which machine is best? Please kindly advise. None have their baskets. The Brenray and the National have their basket retainers though. Not sure which one is which yet. Might have to figure out something for baskets. Local supplier can procure Elma baskets though. 

This is what the seller says:

1) NATIONAL for $66

• High-quality British-made machine.
• Heater needs replacement.
• Variable speed motor for spinning is functional.
• Stirring paddles are intact, but baskets need to be sourced.
• Frame for holding baskets included.

2) BRENRAY for $100

• Good quality British-made machine.
• Heater worked previously but currently not functioning.
• Spinning motor operates well.
• Stirring paddles are intact, but requires baskets.
• Frame for holding baskets included; transparent disc on heating coils intact.

3) UNIVERSAL for $33

• Basic option with a running variable speed motor.
• Requires refurbishment.

Additional Information:

All machines require some refurbishment to restore full functionality.

Purchasing any of these machines and repairing them could lead to significant cost savings compared to buying new (which costs around 10k in South Africa).

I am debating on either the National or Brenray. Just not sure which one's baskets are readily available. 

Edited June 16, 2024 by Pap3r

[Pap3r]

[oldhippy]

This is one I had and it was an excellent machine and it is automatic. In the first jar as you look at it on the left you can see a small device in the jar that is the ultrasonic. This is the machine I had before the L&R Variamatic Watch Cleaning Machine. When it comes to cleaning there is hardly any difference between the two. Just make sure the baskets in the photo fit that machine as I can't remember what mine were like. 

Edited June 16, 2024 by oldhippy

[Pap3r]

6 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

This is one I had and it was an excellent machine and it is automatic. In the first jar as you look at it o the left you can see a small device in the jar that is the ultrasonic. This is the machine I had before the L&R Variamatic Watch Cleaning Machine. When it comes to cleaning there is hardly any difference between the two. Just make sure the baskets in the photo fit that machine as I can't remember what mine were like. 

I see, thank you. Sadly its not available anymore. My options at the moment, are the National and Red BRENRAY. Which is best in your opinion?  

Edited June 16, 2024 by Pap3r

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, Pap3r said:

But in context of currency, a local Big Mac from McDonalds is $2.83/£2.23/€2.64 equivalent. 

So the seller got back to me. Which machine is best? Please kindly advise. None have their baskets. The Brenray and the National have their basket retainers though. Not sure which one is which yet. Might have to figure out something for baskets. Local supplier can procure Elma baskets though. 

This is what the seller says:

1) NATIONAL for $66

• High-quality British-made machine.
• Heater needs replacement.
• Variable speed motor for spinning is functional.
• Stirring paddles are intact, but baskets need to be sourced.
• Frame for holding baskets included.

2) BRENRAY for $100

• Good quality British-made machine.
• Heater worked previously but currently not functioning.
• Spinning motor operates well.
• Stirring paddles are intact, but requires baskets.
• Frame for holding baskets included; transparent disc on heating coils intact.

3) UNIVERSAL for $33

• Basic option with a running variable speed motor.
• Requires refurbishment.

Additional Information:

All machines require some refurbishment to restore full functionality.

Purchasing any of these machines and repairing them could lead to significant cost savings compared to buying new (which costs around 10k in South Africa).

I am debating on either the National or Brenray. Just not sure which one's baskets are readily available. 

These prices are current bids from a seller's ebay site surely

[Pap3r]

15 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

These prices are current bids from a seller's ebay site surely

Nope. These are the prices, he gave me as first dibs before he decides to put them online. He says if I don't like them, I can try Gumtree ads. So I am not sure which one to choose. They don't have baskets at all...

Edited June 16, 2024 by Pap3r

[Neverenoughwatches]

47 minutes ago, Pap3r said:

Nope. These are the prices, he gave me as first dibs before he decides to put them online. He says if I don't like them, I can try Gumtree ads. So I am not sure which one to choose. They don't have baskets at all...

Wow.  If it was me i would buy all of em

 

[tomh207]

@Neverenoughwatches it would be worth flying down to South Africa and bringing them back for us. I’ll chip in

 

Tom

[Malocchio]

Talk about prices, have you noticed that in Japan everything except stuff made in Japan is ridiculously expensive? High import taxes or what? I mean some Bergeon that's 30€ at Cousins might be well over 100 in Japan.

[Pap3r]

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Wow.  If it was me i would buy all of em

 

Yeah. I wish I can afford all of them. I am going to have to choose one. Seller says I can take my time to save up to purchase one before he puts them up online. 

 

37 minutes ago, tomh207 said:

@Neverenoughwatches it would be worth flying down to South Africa and bringing them back for us. I’ll chip in

 

Tom

I saw the UK/EU/US prices are insane. A Robur press for $700. Albeit rare in South Africa. There was an auction in February this year for a Press and some other accessories for R3200 or $175. Min wage here is like R27,58 per hour or $1.5 per hour.

15 minutes ago, Malocchio said:

Talk about prices, have you noticed that in Japan everything except stuff made in Japan is ridiculously expensive? High import taxes or what? I mean some Bergeon that's 30€ at Cousins might be well over 100 in Japan.

Yeah, super cheap compared to other places. I actually debated trying the yahoo auctions to get one of those Seiko crystal openers but you need a Japanese residentual address? Unless I'm mistaken. 

8 minutes ago, Pap3r said:

Yeah. I wish I can afford all of them. I am going to have to choose one. Seller says I can take my time to save up to purchase one before he puts them up online. 

 

I saw the UK/EU/US prices are insane. A Robur press for $700. Albeit rare in South Africa. There was an auction in February this year for a Press and some other accessories for R3200 or $175. Min wage here is like R27,58 per hour or $1.5 per hour.

Yeah, super cheap compared to other places. I actually debated trying the yahoo auctions to get one of those Seiko crystal openers but you need a Japanese residentual address? Unless I'm mistaken. 

The February auction: https://www.auctionchamber.co.za/product/rare-large-collection-of-watchmaker-tools-components/

[Malocchio]

20 minutes ago, Pap3r said:

Yeah, super cheap compared to other places. I actually debated trying the yahoo auctions to get one of those Seiko crystal openers but you need a Japanese residentual address? Unless I'm mistaken.

https://www.fromjapan.co.jp/en

It's a proxy service. Japanese sellers send the items to the Fromjapan warehouse and they ship it to you. They store the items for some 40 days so you can buy many items and combine shipping.

[Pap3r]

16 minutes ago, Malocchio said:

https://www.fromjapan.co.jp/en

It's a proxy service. Japanese sellers send the items to the Fromjapan warehouse and they ship it to you. They store the items for some 40 days so you can buy many items and combine shipping.

Amazing, thank you. They accept Paypal? Or only Mastercard or Visa? What's their shipping service? DHL? I don't trust my local post service. Things get "lost". I prefer courier to bring it to me. 

[Malocchio]

9 minutes ago, Pap3r said:

Amazing, thank you. They accept Paypal? Or only Mastercard or Visa? What's their shipping service? DHL? I don't trust my local post service. Things get "lost". I prefer courier to bring it to me. 

Yes I use Paypal and shipping options include just about everything I know. There might be some restrictions based on the contents but UPS, Fedex and DHL are usually available.

[Pap3r]

12 minutes ago, Malocchio said:

Yes I use Paypal and shipping options include just about everything I know. There might be some restrictions based on the contents but UPS, Fedex and DHL are usually available.

Thanks, as long as its not restricted to air mail.

[oldhippy]

Both of those cleaning machines will do a good job, are the heaters working and find out more about the baskets and how many sections they have to fit tightly in the holders. Have the screw lids for the jars got the cork inside so as to stop evaporation when the machine is not in use.  

[Pap3r]

13 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Both of those cleaning machines will do a good job, are the heaters working and find out more about the baskets and how many sections they have to fit tightly in the holders. Have the screw lids for the jars got the cork inside so as to stop evaporation when the machine is not in use.  

According to Seller. The heating plate on the National is destroyed, no Mica cover & spiral elements are missing. While with the orange Brenray, the heating function used to work, but not working anymore. There's no baskets on either of the machines. There's apparently no extension for the spindle on the Brenray as well. Seller says I have to source baskets for both and figure out a way to extend it on the Brenray. I added further pictures. Do Brenrays have even extended spindles? Could one not attach Elma baskets to both of these machines?

Need to check the cork.

Edited June 16, 2024 by Pap3r

[oldhippy]

If that is the situation I wouldn't bother. There are members on here that have 3d printed baskets and some have replaced the heating element. I also know some have replaced all the wiring. 

[Pap3r]

31 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

If that is the situation I wouldn't bother. There are members on here that have 3d printed baskets and some have replaced the heating element. I also know some have replaced all the wiring. 

I see. I understand, thank you. Though, I have access to 3D printing and the machine shop at my univeristy. Getting those parts should be fine. An example with the National. I can request the machine shop to turn the national spindle to support an Elma basket. I think its further possible for them to make an extension to support an Elma basket for the Brenray. I am just not sure which machine requires the most effort. I am trying to see the costs of restoration on each of them and then ultimately buy the one. I haven't seen a watch cleaning machine on the local market for years. A local watch part shop which sells the Janta/Pearl watch cleaning machines for $540, a clone of the Elma Super Elite, is willing to order in from India, watch baskets, and such spares.  So I am not sure if I should let go of this opportunity. I am willing to rewire everything and update it to current safety standards. 

Edited June 16, 2024 by Pap3r

[oldhippy]

I know clockboy has the cleaning machine which is the one from India and he has said it is a fine machine giving good results. As you have good contacts and are willing to do the wiring it is up to you. I don't like to boast but all the photos of the machines I have had them or similar. The red one I had for cleaning small clock movements such as travel alarm clocks.  I don't think there is much more I can say in giving advice. Good luck in what you choose and do let us know and if you obtain one post photos of it.  

[Neverenoughwatches]

13 hours ago, Pap3r said:

I see. I understand, thank you. Though, I have access to 3D printing and the machine shop at my univeristy. Getting those parts should be fine. An example with the National. I can request the machine shop to turn the national spindle to support an Elma basket. I think its further possible for them to make an extension to support an Elma basket for the Brenray. I am just not sure which machine requires the most effort. I am trying to see the costs of restoration on each of them and then ultimately buy the one. I haven't seen a watch cleaning machine on the local market for years. A local watch part shop which sells the Janta/Pearl watch cleaning machines for $540, a clone of the Elma Super Elite, is willing to order in from India, watch baskets, and such spares.  So I am not sure if I should let go of this opportunity. I am willing to rewire everything and update it to current safety standards. 

Those pearl baskets are bloody awful out of the box.  i bought one six months ago to fit into my homemade machine. I spent well over an hour trying to fix the wobble between the basket and the holder, i got most of it out. The insert tray seperators are also not welded to the bottom so flat watch parts slide around into different sections of the tray and the top retention spring isn't great i also had to modify that to fit better. I paid about £70 , it wasn't exactly money wasted but i was disappointed with the quality but then they are a third of the price of Elma baskets so

[Pap3r]

17 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Those pearl baskets are bloody awful out of the box.  i bought one six months ago to fit into my homemade machine. I spent well over an hour trying to fix the wobble between the basket and the holder, i got most of it out. The insert tray seperators are also not welded to the bottom so flat watch parts slide around into different sections of the tray and the top retention spring isn't great i also had to modify that to fit better. I paid about £70 , it wasn't exactly money wasted but i was disappointed with the quality but then they are a third of the price of Elma baskets so

I see. The pearl machine at the supplier's showroom, looked secure? Maybe Pearl/Janta has different product grades for their complete machine and then the spares. Got pictures of your modifications? £70 is like R1600, so if I buy the red Brenray for R1500 which is £65. So I am spending just get a machine £135 or R3100 to just get the machine w/o upgrading the wiring and changing out the electronics to modern ones, like a modern speed controller compared to the old rheostats typically in these machines. So lets say, I spend another R1500 to get like paint, the wiring and electronics. Mechenical department should have loose off cuts of aluminum rod that I could kindly request to be lathed into an extender to support the pearl baskets. So R4600/£200 or R5000/£220 max. So basically half price of a new machine. It's honestly really preferred to get a machine with the baskets. But with how rare they come by, I am not sure if this opportunity is worth taking? It's definitely going to be a long term project. 

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 minutes ago, Pap3r said:

I see. The pearl machine at the supplier's showroom, looked secure? Maybe Pearl/Janta has different product grades for their complete machine and then the spares. Got pictures of your modifications? £70 is like R1600, so if I buy the red Brenray for R1500 which is £65. So I am spending just get a machine £135 or R3100 to just get the machine w/o upgrading the wiring and changing out the electronics to modern ones, like a modern speed controller compared to the old rheostats typically in these machines. So lets say, I spend another R1500 to get like paint, the wiring and electronics. Mechenical department should have loose off cuts of aluminum rod that I could kindly request to be lathed into an extender to support the pearl baskets. So R4600/£200 or R5000/£220 max. So basically half price of a new machine. It's honestly really preferred to get a machine with the baskets. But with how rare they come by, I am not sure if this opportunity is worth taking? It's definitely going to be a long term project. 

I imagine a machine in the supplier's showroom, they need to have running perfect.  Both HectorLooi and I had the same problems with the wobble which was excessive to begin with and the gaps under the seperatators. I also need to place a shim between the holder and the basket to further correct the wobble which could not be completed with just filing the basket tab notches.

It runs ok now but i wasn't impressed with the quality standard but like i said it was a third of the price.