lubricating a movement with no Jewels

[Phil125]

I got this pocketwatch for free it is winding but not running.   I'm new to the hobby and wanted to see if I can troubleshoot it.   I opened it and discovered it has no Jewels.  I was wondering if 9010 would be the correct lubrication for this movement or is a different type of lubrication needed?

[Waggy]

I'm always torn with this situation too, I tend to use 9010 on the faster moving wheels and D5 (or HP1300 [9104]) on the slower moving wheels. However, this is just the way I do it, I would be keen to see/learn from the more experienced people on this forum if there is a better practice.

[Endeavor]

One of the problems may be that your watch, as far as I can judge, has a cylinder escapement;

and the problem with cylinder escapements is that they wear out, either the cylinder, the escape wheel tooth or both.

https://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/blogcylinder.php

To correct that situation, you need to know a lot, special equipment and new escapement parts (very hard to get in the correct size, if at all).

You can clean the watch and if you are lucky, it still runs. But don't be disappointment if it doesn't. You just happened to pick the "wrong" beginners movement.

Have a look on eBay and you will notice that most people shy away from pocket watches with cylinder escapements and therefor those watches go very cheap. I know for myself, as soon as I discover that the PW has a cylinder escapement, I skip it, regardless.

As a beginner best is to start with a good running watch with a Swiss anchor escapement; https://blog.watchdoctor.biz/2017/12/03/how-a-watch-escapement-works/

These escapements are less prone to wear and you stand a better chance to get a project with a successful ending.

Of course, you can try to bring your watch alive, but don't be disappointed if you can't .... it may not be your fault.....

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Endeavor

[RichardHarris123]

I think it's a pin pallet. 

[Marc]

1 hour ago, RichardHarris123 said:

I think it's a pin pallet.

It is indeed a pin pallet escapement and not a cylinder, the pallet cock is the one sitting on top of the main plate in the lower left of the movement.

@Waggy's advice is as good as any for this, with the addition of a (sparing) dab of 9010 on the escape wheel teeth, however the movement should be cleaned properly first.

 

[Endeavor]

I guess I was wrong in my escapement judgement, but the reason for my "cautiousness" to the beginners enthusiasm stays the same; wear may be in the way of a suc6 story.

This is what Wikipedia has to say about pin-pallet escapements;

"The pin pallet escapement was widely used as it had many of the advantages of the lever escapement but was easier to manufacture. The pallets in a traditional lever escapement have two angled faces, the locking face and the impulse face, which engage the escape wheel teeth. They must be adjusted to precisely correct angles for the escapement to function. In the pin pallet escapement these faces are designed into the shape of the escape wheel teeth instead, eliminating the need for costly adjustments. However, the metal pins used instead of pallets have much higher friction than jewelled pallets, and combined with the looser manufacturing tolerances this made pin pallet timepieces less accurate. The metal pins also wear more quickly. Pin pallet timepieces are usually too cheap to justify repairing, and are usually thrown away when they break down or wear out".

Edited March 7, 2023 by Endeavor

[Marc]

I think that Wikipedia has a rather damning assessment of pin pallet movements given that nearly all the vintage (pre quartz) Timex, EB, and Oris movements, and a lot of the Ronda, and indeed many many more of the movements that we find in the more budget pre-quartz vintage watches and a lot of small clocks that are still so prolific are pin levers. Excessive wear in the escapement doesn't seem to have been a problem for them. Oris even made a chronometer grade pin lever, so the design is capable of very good things if enough care is taken in the manufacture, however that kind of goes against the design philosophy of keeping things cheap.

That being said wear may still be a significant factor in @Phil125's watch. Not so much in the escapement but in the pivots. Steel pivots running in brass bearings will eventually wear the pivot holes out of round, especially if they are run dry. This will interfere with the meshing between wheels and pinions and can cause the train to bind, an issue that can affect all un-jeweled movements regardless of escapement design.

When cleaning the movement all of the pivots and pivot holes should be closely inspected for wear.

[Phil125]

Thanks for the advice everybody.  From what I've read I should probably set this one off to the side and work on something better built.  Maybe I'll come back around to it when i get more experience.

[RichardHarris123]

The only difficult part is the full plate. 

[Phil125]

25 minutes ago, RichardHarris123 said:

The only difficult part is the full plate. 

Yeah i have heard that and have see a few people struggle lining up a full plate on youtube.

[RichardHarris123]

2 minutes ago, Phil125 said:

Yeah i have heard that and have see a few people struggle lining up a full plate on youtube.

Managed a couple but I try to avoid them. 

[kd8tzc]

Going back to the original question, as I am fairly new too... what about the oil that the OP recommended?  I'd like to know as well for my edification.

 

[ScrewDropper]

On 3/8/2023 at 3:51 PM, kd8tzc said:

Going back to the original question, as I am fairly new too... what about the oil that the OP recommended?  I'd like to know as well for my edification.

 

A good rule of thumb is low speed, high torque wheels - D5, high speed, low torque - 9010