First movement - basketcase Seiko 5 - let's dig in!

[aac58]

4 hours ago, lexacat said:

When I go to let down the mainspring, absolutely nothing happens. When I removed the pallet fork, all of a sudden the mainspring lets down

I don't know if you are aware of this, so just in case. In these kind of movements to unwind the MS down you first need to uninstall the second reduction wheel, it won't unwind with it installed.

Edited January 10, 2023 by aac58

[lexacat]

9 hours ago, aac58 said:

I don't know if you are aware of this, so just in case. In these kind of movements to unwind the MS down you first need to uninstall the second reduction wheel, it won't unwind with it installed.

Ooooooh

 

Oh that explains so much about so much. 

Thanks man! 

[lexacat]

Guys.

Guys I think I'm just lazy. 

I have a desk job so I'm not getting enough winding happening on the rotor. It stopped again today. 

I shook the heck out of it for 10 minutes on my drive home, I'm sure that looked perfectly normal to everyone in traffic around me. 

Anyway, gonna test this theory, but I'm hoping that's all it is. 

[lexacat]

Nah. Lasted from 7pm until 2am. 

So there's some merit to the theory that it's not getting enough wind, but I don't think it's body movement related. 

Leading theory now is its not winding due to interference between the case back and the rotor. I've put a dial on with a chapter ring, and this case has a suspiciously low crystal. I think it might be too snug in there. 

[aac58]

If I were you I'd try to find a different approach, trying to identify the cause of the problem step by step. I'm just a tinkerer but I've had similar problems in the past, and still have them from time to time, and I have usually idenfified the cause, sometimes faster than others.

For example (just thinking out loud):

- The watch has stopped. Is the mainspring fully unwound? If it isn't then probably the autowinding is not the cause and something in the train of wheels or escapement could be happening.

- Windind the watch manually via the rachet wheel from the unwound state, how many turns does it take until you feel the MS slipping inside the barrel? IIRC it should be around 6 turns (may be 8 I should check it out). If it slips before that then it looks like the MS is not holding enought power.

- Once fully wound manually, how long does it run until fully unwound if I leave it on my desk? Should be 36-42 hours. If it's shorter than that I'd suspect the MS and barrel again.

- If I move the watch slowly without the case back, does the oscillating weight turn freely? This has to be tested with different degrees of power in the MS, it might turn easily at first but harder as the MS is getting more and more power. If it doesn't then I'd recheck the autowinding mechanism, specially the 1st reduction wheel including its jewels and the ball bearing.

- While the weight is turning, is the MS getting power (i.e. is the ratchet wheel turning) If not then I'd check and reclean the 1st and 2nd reduction wheels and the pawl lever. I'd check that the pawl lever tips are sharp enough and the teeth of the 2nd reduction wheel are clean (once I clean them with rodico and that solved my problem, so now that's part of my procedure)

- Is  the click holding the ratchet wheel? If at any time it doen't then the click and/or the ratchet wheel should be inspected and replaced if necessary.

- If you suspect that the weight is touching the caseback or something else, I'd look for wear or listen to unusual noises (or not noise at all which is not normal either)

Just some ideas I've thought right now.

[lexacat]

17 hours ago, aac58 said:

If I were you I'd try to find a different approach, trying to identify the cause of the problem step by step. I'm just a tinkerer but I've had similar problems in the past, and still have them from time to time, and I have usually idenfified the cause, sometimes faster than others.

For example (just thinking out loud):

- The watch has stopped. Is the mainspring fully unwound? If it isn't then probably the autowinding is not the cause and something in the train of wheels or escapement could be happening.

- Windind the watch manually via the rachet wheel from the unwound state, how many turns does it take until you feel the MS slipping inside the barrel? IIRC it should be around 6 turns (may be 8 I should check it out). If it slips before that then it looks like the MS is not holding enought power.

- Once fully wound manually, how long does it run until fully unwound if I leave it on my desk? Should be 36-42 hours. If it's shorter than that I'd suspect the MS and barrel again.

- If I move the watch slowly without the case back, does the oscillating weight turn freely? This has to be tested with different degrees of power in the MS, it might turn easily at first but harder as the MS is getting more and more power. If it doesn't then I'd recheck the autowinding mechanism, specially the 1st reduction wheel including its jewels and the ball bearing.

- While the weight is turning, is the MS getting power (i.e. is the ratchet wheel turning) If not then I'd check and reclean the 1st and 2nd reduction wheels and the pawl lever. I'd check that the pawl lever tips are sharp enough and the teeth of the 2nd reduction wheel are clean (once I clean them with rodico and that solved my problem, so now that's part of my procedure)

- Is  the click holding the ratchet wheel? If at any time it doen't then the click and/or the ratchet wheel should be inspected and replaced if necessary.

- If you suspect that the weight is touching the caseback or something else, I'd look for wear or listen to unusual noises (or not noise at all which is not normal either)

Just some ideas I've thought right now.

That's all great advice, thanks!

The reason I suspected the rotor is that I could not hear or feel it moving. I've finally had time to dig deeper, and after opening the case the rotor was moving freely. 99% sure now it was an issue with being cased.

I've double checked and confirmed the ratchet wheel turns and the click engages correctly when the rotor spins, so it all looks good. Pawl lever and second reduction are working as required. I've put a full wind into it now via the ratchet, and it's ticking along nicely. Get about 6 winds and then starts to tense up before slipping.

I've swapped into a different case and put the aftermarket Wave Off Kanagawa dial back on, and this time I can definitely tell that the rotor is turning. The rotor "seizes" at times but I think that's because there's a full wind in the mainspring. 

Rather than let it sit I'm going to wear it for a week to see if it keeps running, it got 36 hours out of a full wind before (when the rotor wasn't turning).

 

Fingers crossed!

 

[lexacat]

Well there's definitely something wrong in here that's beyond my current ability to diagnose. I'll have to put it aside for another day in the future.

It ran perfectly since the last post, then last night just completely stopped again. I walked for at least 45 minutes yesterday, so there's no way it shouldn't have been wound enough to run through the night.

When I got home I took the case back off and manually wound the ratchet wheel. It then kept perfect time overnight. One thing I noticed is that I can't feel any tension or slippage from the mainspring, the ratchet wheel just turns and turns with the same amount of torque required.

At a guess it's something to do with the mainspring not winding correctly for some reason.

Edited January 17, 2023 by lexacat

[SimonJ]

I suggest winding the mainspring fully manually, and leaving the movement uncased, to see how many hours it runs.

[lexacat]

On 1/17/2023 at 3:08 PM, SimonJ said:

I suggest winding the mainspring fully manually, and leaving the movement uncased, to see how many hours it runs.

Thanks Simon, that's not a bad idea to get an idea of how long it runs for.

I'm pretty sure I've narrowed the issue down to the oscillating weight bearing now. The rotor is getting stuck ocasionally and only loosens up with a hard shake, then it spins fine. The bearing has a lot of play in it which isn't great, so I suspect there's a certain angle/position combination where it manages to bind against the case back and movement. I have a few spare rotors here but they are not in great condition either. I'll try one or two of those anyway to see if it still binds up. The last option is a new aftermarket rotor. I could replace the bearing but don't have the correct tools, and it's about the same price to get a whole rotor...

[lexacat]

Have swapped for an oscillating weight with a more stable bearing, and still had a heap of issues. I've since removed/reinstalled the dial and hands to ensure they are on correctly and not creating any space issues. After a bit more trial and error I found that the rotor would catch against the movement ring in the same spot when spinning dial down. After making sure the movement ring was seated exactly perfectly and as low as it would go (push one side and the other pops up... grr), I re-cased it and the rotor doesn't appear to have caught again. I'll test it out for a few more days to see how it goes, but fingers crossed this is it.