My late Grandfather's Olivia manual wind watch restoration; balance staff advice please.

[RichDavis]

Hi there,

New to the hobby and have watched all of Mark's courses - absolutely brilliant. I have practiced breaking down and reassembling a few old pocket watch movements from eBay and feel ready to start my quest to repair my Grandfather's Olivia 17 jewel manual wind watch (an EB 8385-66). From the research I've completed, I understand that the EB 8385 is the model and the 66 denotes the year of manufacture - 1966 - a great year I'm sure many of you will agree! The model was stamped just under the balance  wheel.

It's a non runner and with my new found knowledge I inspected the balance fist to see a broken balance staff pinion. The good news is that there is still power coming through to the pallet fork which is flicking back and fourth nicely with my tweezers, so I'm hoping I just need a new balance staff.

I have ordered a donor watch off of e-bay and plan to take the balance from that and hope that it fits in my Grandad's watch - I can't tell if it's an exact match until it arrives, but I'm hopeful.

What I'd really like to do is replace the balance staff on the original parts, so the heart of his watch is mainly complete - hair spring, balance wheel, bridge etc. I have watched Mark's and others' tutorials on removing and replacing a balance staff, and whilst it looks very difficult, I feel I'd like to try.

So that would mean me getting a staking set etc, but I really need to know which balance staff to order.

One of the kind members (watchweasol) on here suggested I google the ranfft website and I found the article below:

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&EB_8385& 

This describes the balance staff as a U3110. I have googled this and can't find it other than what is described on the link above. 

If the donor watch I have ordered is potentially the wrong model, I won't be able to nab the balance staff from that, so wanted to look at options to order one on it's own.

So my question is does anyone know how I could order a U3110 balance staff?

Here is the watch to give the whole thread some context.

Thanks in advance for any help  

Rich

[WatchMaker]

The ranfft site is incredibly useful but the balance staff (and stem) reference numbers are based on codes used by Flume Technik so not overly useful unless ordering parts from Germany via https://www.flume.de/

More universal for balance staff references are Ronda numbers and in this respect https://www.balancestaffs.com/ is a useful reference. This site tell us you need a 5053 balance staff. Clearly you could use this site to buy from but also with the Ronda number you can more likely find on a site like ebay.

Also note that Cousins allows you to look up and order by Ronda number: https://www.cousinsuk.com/category/filter/ronda-staffs-by-ronda-number

Note that anything involving the balance in some way is undoubtedly what fills most people's swear jars the quickest. Balance staff replacement is something valuable to learn ... but not straight away on something (sentimentally) valuable. I'd therefore certainly recommend practicing on something else first.

[RichDavis]

17 minutes ago, WatchMaker said:

The ranfft site is incredibly useful but the balance staff (and stem) reference numbers are based on codes used by Flume Technik so not overly useful unless ordering parts from Germany via https://www.flume.de/

More universal for balance staff references are Ronda numbers and in this respect https://www.balancestaffs.com/ is a useful reference. This site tell us you need a 5053 balance staff. Clearly you could use this site to buy from but also with the Ronda number you can more likely find on a site like ebay.

Also note that Cousins allows you to look up and order by Ronda number: https://www.cousinsuk.com/category/filter/ronda-staffs-by-ronda-number

Note that anything involving the balance in some way is undoubtedly what fills most people's swear jars the quickest. Balance staff replacement is something valuable to learn ... but not straight away on something (sentimentally) valuable. I'd therefore certainly recommend practicing on something else first.

What excellent advice Watchmaker - thank you so much. Also for the warning - I will practice for sure before I attempt it. Trouble is Mark makes everything look so easy in his videos! I'll be sure to let you all know how I get on.

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, RichDavis said:

What excellent advice Watchmaker - thank you so much. Also for the warning - I will practice for sure before I attempt it. Trouble is Mark makes everything look so easy in his videos! I'll be sure to let you all know how I get on.

Hi Rich, didnt anyone pick up on the 1966 ? . Have a look at Marshall on wristwatch revival. He's a good amateur.  There is one where he replaces a balance staff, only his second time. Sometimes good to watch an enthusiast on tenderhooks. This is the one reason I got a staking set, as broken balance pivots crop up regularly.  I have a few to sort out. One on a lovely venus. Not yet had a go though, so I'm not your man for advice on the process, only on what I've watched. Definitely  good advice to practice on something  else less valuable. I practised over and over with mainsprings replacing by hand. My grandfather's had a few issues, my first repair. I worked through them and it got me into this hobby. If you have the same movement ordered then it's liable  to be a fit. As a compromise how about just taking the balance staff roller and the balance wheel from the the donor, that way all you are doing is taking off the hairspring and cock. Only a few small procedures to work though, leaving out possibly th e most destructive and risky I had a similar  dilemma with my first, what to change what not to. Obviously  sentimental and want to retain as much as possible, but you might end up breaking your original balance wheel , roller ,impulse

Edited April 20, 2022 by Neverenoughwatches

[Neverenoughwatches]

37 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hi Rich, didnt anyone pick up on the 1966 ? . Have a look at Marshall on wristwatch revival. He's a good amateur.  There is one where he replaces a balance staff, only his second time. Sometimes good to watch an enthusiast on tenderhooks. This is the one reason I got a staking set, as broken balance pivots crop up regularly.  I have a few to sort out. One on a lovely venus. Not yet had a go though, so I'm not your man for advice on the process, only on what I've watched. Definitely  good advice to practice on something  else less valuable. I practised over and over with mainsprings replacing by hand. My grandfather's had a few issues, my first repair. I worked through them and it got me into this hobby. If you have the same movement ordered then it's liable  to be a fit. As a compromise how about just taking the balance staff roller and the balance wheel from the the donor, that way all you are doing is taking off the hairspring and cock. Only a few small procedures to work though, leaving out possibly th e most destructive and risky I had a similar  dilemma with my first, what to change what not to. Obviously  sentimental and want to retain as much as possible, but you might end up breaking your original balance wheel , roller ,impulse

How much have you done on repairing. Do you feel confident removing hairsprings ?

[RichDavis]

34 minutes ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Hi Rich, didnt anyone pick up on the 1966 ? . Have a look at Marshall on wristwatch revival. He's a good amateur.  There is one where he replaces a balance staff, only his second time. Sometimes good to watch an enthusiast on tenderhooks. This is the one reason I got a staking set, as broken balance pivots crop up regularly.  I have a few to sort out. One on a lovely venus. Not yet had a go though, so I'm not your man for advice on the process, only on what I've watched. Definitely  good advice to practice on something  else less valuable. I practised over and over with mainsprings replacing by hand. My grandfather's had a few issues, my first repair. I worked through them and it got me into this hobby. If you have the same movement ordered then it's liable  to be a fit. As a compromise how about just taking the balance staff roller and the balance wheel from the the donor, that way all you are doing is taking off the hairspring and cock. Only a few small procedures to work though, leaving out possibly th e most destructive and risky I had a similar  dilemma with my first, what to change what not to. Obviously  sentimental and want to retain as much as possible, but you might end up breaking your original balance wheel , roller ,impulse

I thought a few more would have ️ 

Thanks so much for the feedback. Yes, I watched Marshal replace that balance staff and coupled with Mark’s videos gave me the confidence that I could try it; subject to me getting the tools I’d need. 

Good thinking on the other option for repair maintaining a bit more of the original. I’ll see what the donor looks like and give it some thought. 
 

Really appreciate everyone’s feedback

[RichDavis]

Just now, Neverenoughwatches said:

How much have you done on repairing. Do you feel confident removing hairsprings ?

Well it would be my first time, but I’ve watched many tutorials and will practice on something less important to me first.  

[watchweasol]

 Hi Should you be unable to get a staff Have a look at the Jules Borel site under the JBC database the EB(bettelach) is listed and the balance complete is $21.60.

The staff is listed in the  balancestaffs.com catalogue as BS5596 @24.95 euros.

[RichDavis]

10 minutes ago, watchweasol said:

 Hi Should you be unable to get a staff Have a look at the Jules Borel site under the JBC database the EB(bettelach) is listed and the balance complete is $21.60.

The staff is listed in the  balancestaffs.com catalogue as BS5596 @24.95 euros.

Thanks again. I’ll take a look at that.

[Neverenoughwatches]

21 minutes ago, RichDavis said:

Well it would be my first time, but I’ve watched many tutorials and will practice on something less important to me first.  

Delicate little monkeys they are. This is when you will find out how steady your hands really are. Some very small tweezers and nerves of steel lol. Be as careful as you can, any distortion in the hairspring you create can be a real bugger to sort out later. Just a little tip with the hand shake, make sure your blood sugar is steady. It's so noticeable at this level. Blood sugar is always more stable in the afternoon, I'd be looking at an hour or so after dinner. Sometimes just a glass of good natural fruit juice will help raise it temporarily. Never thought what I knew about diet would be applied to watches.

[RichDavis]

16 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Delicate little monkeys they are. This is when you will find out how steady your hands really are. Some very small tweezers and nerves of steel lol. Be as careful as you can, any distortion in the hairspring you create can be a real bugger to sort out later. Just a little tip with the hand shake, make sure your blood sugar is steady. It's so noticeable at this level. Blood sugar is always more stable in the afternoon, I'd be looking at an hour or so after dinner. Sometimes just a glass of good natural fruit juice will help raise it temporarily. Never thought what I knew about diet would be applied to watches.

Good advice for sure - thank you. I will try the fruit juice thing.

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 minutes ago, RichDavis said:

Good advice for sure - thank you. I will try the fruit juice thing.

Hi Rich. I realised my  blood sugar level as soon as I went down to hairspring manipulation, it's so obvious there. If you think you have steady hands wait till you get on with that lol. Definitely  something  you don't want to attemp with a rumbling tummy haha. picked the fruit juice tip up from kalle of chronoglide .