Replacing friction jewels in pocket watch -- is a Seitz tool (or equivalent) the only option

[Levine98]

I have a three older Elgin 15j pocket watches (pre-1925) that I'm trying to restore. Each of the base plates has one or more damaged jewels. I think I can find replacement jewels from Otto Frei here in the US, but don't own a jewel press (Seitz?). Are these presses the only way to extract/insert friction fitted jewels? I do own a complete staking set but figured I better ask before breaking out my brass hammer....

Thanks

[JohnR725]

14 hours ago, Levine98 said:

I have a three older Elgin 15j pocket watches (pre-1925) that I'm trying to restore. Each of the base plates has one or more damaged jewels.

We really need specifics not generalizations. For instance are the jewels in a setting can you take the setting out. Then damage what you mean by damage?  A lot of times especially natural stones will have trouble flaws  that  probably isn't a problem.  In the words of the jewel looks cracked but you can't see the crack on the surface of where the bearing goes it's not an issue. Because we tried to replace every flawed jewel in an American pocket watch  it replace all of them they tend always have flaws.. But if you visibly can see the crack that's an issue

14 hours ago, Levine98 said:

(Seitz?)

Yes that's usually considered the standard tool that you need. Specifically a need the reamers because typically are going to have to open up a whole to fit the replacement jewel. In other words unless it's a modern  press in jewel or you can just press it out and press in the replacement theory going to usually have to modify something. So typically that means you have to open up the whole to fit the modern jewel. This means you need the tool with the reamers  and then the tool also is used for pushing in the jewels..  I'm attaching the books you can see with the jewel tool and all its bits and pieces look like..

 

seitz BOOK.pdf

[Levine98]

Thanks for the response. Attached are pictures of the three different jewels (all are Elgin 16s Grade 313 15j movements of similar age 1920-1925). 

These are the worst of it. As you note, some of the other jewels show fracture but the pivots seem intact.

I'll read through the book you provided tonight.

Cheers

Levine98

[JohnR725]

EBay is always interesting place swiped some pictures there of the movement 313 and they snipped out a bunch a images from a variety of locations including the one at the link below. I needed a better picture of your jewels in other words to step back just a little bit.

Also the pictures are nice for anyone who comes to this discussion and doesn't have one of these in their hand. Typically sort of tools can be and settings held in with screws so they can come out. Use of the jewels on the main plate but not always are friction and in or as we can see here from your picture all of the jewels are burnished into the settings. That can provide interesting challenges as to how obsessed you are with wanting to fix things.

From the site below we can look up the jewels but that wasn't helping me because I wanted to see something? So if we had a time machine at one time we could go back in time and purchased all the jewels. But they're not just a pop in component basically it have to smash the old jewel out would be the easiest and even for what you're doing smashing how it would be good. Then you have to open up the bezel that's holding the jewel in place a lot easier when the jewels missing but the new jewel in and then re-burnish it. Now the problem with modern jewels there shaped wrong I'll see if I can find an image for you there might actually be I think there's a image in the PDF I gave you. Which means while some people have tried to put the modern jewels in their better if you modify them before you do it. Or because on the main side no one's ever get a see you take your jeweling tool and is open up the whole big enough for modern jewel doing it on the visible side it becomes much more noticeable as the color the jewels were dramatically different usually a light pink for the original and a nice dark red for the modern.

Then of course the jewels of your and settings if there's enough space you can ream them out and put a modern jewel in otherwise you're almost stuck with a lathe project of making a new setting for modern jewel.

Then you notice in the attached images snip something other than 1915 parts catalog we needed another number which you normally don't find which is the class number. Elgin changed how they did their parts and when they did that it made interesting challenges them in the skip over for things like the pocket watch database. So in the old days the watches would fall into a class category and then you'd seek out the parts for that particular class. This is where Elgin probably didn't grasp just how big they were going to get and may be a different system might've been better.

Then just because I snipped out of page from the jewel setting I was hoping for a better description or something of how you're supposed to replace them I haven't seen that yet. On a particular page will notice that for class 110 there would actually be two separate jewels depending upon something. But the other thing look at is look at all the different types of jewels found in the watches with all the different colors this is where when I see somebody wanting to replace all the jewels in the watch and getting them to look like a vintage watch would become extremely problematic which is nice that you're on the dial side were no one's ever going to see what's going on.

Then yes if it's done right you can replace the jewel in the setting with a modern jewel it doesn't always stand out as obvious what happened if you're careful about and providing there's enough room on the setting to get a modern jewel in that's less of a problem on the dial side

 

 

 

 

http://www.elginwatchparts.com/

[Levine98]

I'm starting to get the feeling that I might be wise to move on from trying to fix 100 year pocket watches that require more then a new mainspring or good cleaning.

Out of 12 movements I purchased since Jan/2022 off of eBay, I've only been able to get 5 in working order--the rest have proven more challenging due to limited parts availability and/or my lack of skills with more advanced tools beyond a staking set.

I did reach out to Otto Frei and they have one of the jewels I need (bottom jewel for escape wheel), but I also need bottoms for the fourth wheel and pallet (working on three different movements). 

So at this point can't justify investing in a Seitz tool if I can't find the parts and/or make them myself. 

Thanks

Levine98

[JohnR725]

17 minutes ago, Levine98 said:

require more then a new mainspring or good cleaning

Yes that's the amusing problem? If you pick the right watches newer watches preferably cleaning might be all that's needed butas you go older whether it's pocket watches are even older wristwatches new problems will pop up

as my day job is pocket watches I get caught with a problem of when will the watch be done? It's done when it leaves the store and preferably doesn't come back when is that who knows? Notice the preciseness of my answers in that incoming watches can look reasonable on the timing machine so it appears to be it's just a cleaning which it never is by the way. But along the way problems will pop up things that weren't noticed or things that will decide to break or just things will happen so even watches and look promising probably aren't

Then the problem is that unique the pocket watches older wristwatches will have problems. Basically similar same problems of pocket watches will have made much much worse by multiple of people of touching the item before you possibly attempting to fix things in strange unusual ways that come back to haunt you.

20 minutes ago, Levine98 said:

Out of 12 movements I purchased since

I remember someone of ways to do work for once handed me an entire bag of military wristwatches and said see what you do with this. Well there newer the newer the pocket watches and guess what I discovered? Military wristwatches had a bad life and the basically worn out I couldn't even swap parts around to make a good watch the basically I discovered it wasted a heck of a lot of my time without any income coming in the replace the time wasted because no jobs were complete. Unfortunately watches can wear a heart and while they all couldn't be fixed conceivably the effort to fixing them becomes far too great.