Elgin 6S PW, escapement woes

[azkid]

(Ref. http://www.rdrop.com/~jsexton/watches/csw/les22/index.html, among others)

 

I have a 13J Elgin 6S (Ser No. 4548842, Grade 120, 1892) that seems to have trouble with the escapement and I would like to humbly ask for advice.

 

I started out disassembling, cleaning, and lubricating, and replacing the mainspring.

 

All back together, it ran but with poor amplitude.

 

Then I noticed that, with no/little wind, the balance would seem to have significant drag through part of it's rotation. I diagnosed this as the guard pin contacting the (single) roller table at times.

 

I then noticed the lock depth on each pallet jewel was much shallower than I had seen before and the escapement was able to skip a couple of teeth with the balance out, while manually moving the fork with a tiny bit of force on the train.

 

I repositioned the pallet jewels out until locking was guaranteed. (First time doing this, as you can tell by the giant blobs of shellac...)

 

What currently concerns me is that the fork does not seem to be drawn to the banking pins particularly on the entry side. Even with quite a bit of force on the train.

 

(Side note: The entry side seemed to be the side with insufficient lock depth -- I had to pull that pallet out 3x more than the other to fix the lock issue. Also, the lever has several dings in one spot and looks to my eye like it may be bent in the opposite direction of the dings)

 

 

 

I have noticed that the fork comes out with the pallet cock -- that is, the pinion sticks in the jewel. This issue is even worse trying a couple other compatible Elgin forks. The fit seems way too tight.

 

I have cleaned the cock in the ultrasonic cleaner and pegged it out the hole a few times to no avail.

 

I next tried using an pallet fork and cock from an 1890 Elgin 7J grade 95 (Ser. No. 3761633). The cock has a sufficiently large hole that the fork doesn't stick in it.

 

This arrangement actually works! Like, the watch wants to run with no binding. The lever arm is definitely drawn to each banking pin even with a modest force placed on the train.

 

** Q: Do you agree with my theory that the tightness of the jewel/pinion fit of the original watch is causing enough drag to negate the draw force?

 

Logically this is either a too-small hole, too-big pinion, or a misalignment of top and bottom jewels, or combination of these.

 

Any additional thoughts or wisdom on what to do?

 

Thanks--Much appreciated!

 

(By the way, the mainspring broke so I am now replacing that in the meanwhile)

 

 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

 

[khunter]

There are a few possible reasons for the binding, one could be that the cock was replaced with a similar but incorrect part. The fork has obviously been "adjusted" at some point, and very poorly. It too could be a replacement. 

All things being equal you should never have to adjust the stones in the pallet unless they have become dislodged. The improper drop is probably due to the aforementioned hack repairer hammering on the fork.

These old companies had tons of variations on the same "models" and grades over the years, sometimes even within the same run. Replacing parts willy-nilly as some repairers did without proper identification of the movement created lots of headaches down the road. The cock should be stamped with the same serial number as the movement, or at least the last few digits. If not, well there's your problem. The same unfortunately can't be said for the pallet fork, just to small to number. 

I'd go with what works at this point, I'd especially ditch that fork.

[azkid]

There are a few possible reasons for the binding, one could be that the cock was replaced with a similar but incorrect part. The fork has obviously been "adjusted" at some point, and very poorly. It too could be a replacement. 

All things being equal you should never have to adjust the stones in the pallet unless they have become dislodged. The improper drop is probably due to the aforementioned hack repairer hammering on the fork.

These old companies had tons of variations on the same "models" and grades over the years, sometimes even within the same run. Replacing parts willy-nilly as some repairers did without proper identification of the movement created lots of headaches down the road. The cock should be stamped with the same serial number as the movement, or at least the last few digits. If not, well there's your problem. The same unfortunately can't be said for the pallet fork, just to small to number. 

I'd go with what works at this point, I'd especially ditch that fork.

Thanks I appreciate the input!

 

Yes that fork is well and truly trashed. Although I have learned some new things from this mess so that's good I guess.

 

I will check the number on the cock again to be sure it matches.

 

Thank heavens for pwdb where I can find a list of potential donor movements for another fork.

 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[azkid]

Update: I replaced the mainspring, reassembled, adjusted the beat error to the range of 0.2ms, and the watch is running with good amplitude*, DD so I guess there is some hope for this thing, at least.

However, DU it is running very poorly, so it is not yet in any kind of acceptable condition. But I shall cling to hope. . Thanks much for the help!

* I don't know the lift angle for this grade. My slow motion video confirms it is in the ballpark of 240°


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[azkid]

PS: the pallet cock was the original. I suspect the jewel is not original.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[khunter]

Most American pocket watches used 52° or pretty close for lift angle.

Your dial up problems usually can be traced to a faulty upper pivot and or jewel, or improper end shake, allowing the hairspring to rub on the balance arm. Also if the end shake is too excessive the pallet fork can loose good contact with the roller jewel also causing low amplitude. It's all basically trial and error unless there's an obvious problem such as damaged pivot or jewel. You'll get it!

[azkid]

Most American pocket watches used 52° or pretty close for lift angle.

Your dial up problems usually can be traced to a faulty upper pivot and or jewel, or improper end shake, allowing the hairspring to rub on the balance arm. Also if the end shake is too excessive the pallet fork can loose good contact with the roller jewel also causing low amplitude. It's all basically trial and error unless there's an obvious problem such as damaged pivot or jewel. You'll get it!

Thanks!

 

I am not giving up on this jinxed movement. No more buying movements. Time to stretch my skills harder than ever and fix what I got. [emoji3]

 

I lubricated cock-side cap jewel (forgot after replacing, oops), didn't seem to help immediately.

 

Also, regulator pins needed opening a smidge. After that, DU and DD are running around +30. (Before DU was +30 DD was -120!)

 

The hairspring isn't sitting flat and may not be centered, either. So I will spend (lots) more time on that, at a later date.

 

But for now I cased it and stuck it in my pocket. Let's see how bad it runs. 8-O

[khunter]

Getting the DU and DD positions to run close to each other is the most difficult part in adjusting, IMO, because there are so many different things that can cause differences. If you've got them both at +30 a day then that's bang on. Remember, adjusting and regulating are two entirely different things. You adjust to get positions within an acceptable range of difference (say, +/- 10sec/day from each other).....then you Regulate to get the average daily rate as close to 0 as possible, emphasis on the average. There's an excellent blog that describes adjusting and regulating vintage pocket watches, aptly named:

adjustingvintagewatches.com

sounds like you're well on your way!!

[azkid]

I have a bit more to do to prove to myself that DU/DD adjustment is actually right -- as opposed to happy coincidence where numerous faults add up to an apparently correct result.

I guess I am trying to make it a little better each time I mess with it.

The most glaring issue right now is the wide (30spd), periodic rate variation over the span of a minute or two. More investigation needed there, too.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[azkid]

Update: the watch has been running (reliably) between -45 and +35 spd the last few days with average rate currently at -2.2spd. I can only imagine how it would do with some further fixing and adjustment.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk