Bizarre state of the balance! Miyota 8200

[SamLiddle]

Hello all,

I've just opened up a Citizen non-runner I picked up on eBay. Miyota 8200A movement. Seller reported snapped stem only. However I noticed the hairspring was way out of alignment, so took a closer look. Behold:

 

This is totally wrong, no? It seems to double back on itself, as if someone has tried to install in upside down and just bent it back through the regulator? I'm a novice and would appreciate any insights into this. How could it have happened?

 

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Sam

[rjenkinsgb]

Wow, that's a new one!

I wonder if someone took the hairspring off the balance, then put the balance back from the wrong side??

 

(Or one of the scam youtube videos, such as how to make a watch run backwards or similar 

[SamLiddle]

On second thought, it looks as though the regulator is on the wrong side of the stud... but how is that even possible?

[Nucejoe]

17 minutes ago, SamLiddle said:

 it looks as though the regulator is on the wrong side of the stud... but how is that even possible?

Yes and thats the issue with your watch. 

Detach balance complete and cock.

Remove stud carrier and regulator arm off balance cock and replace properly. 

Next hairspring needs sorting out before instalation

I am not sure if this is the right balance complete, you will find out though.

[SamLiddle]

The plot thickens...

Good news is that power does move down the train freely, and the other wheels and pivots all look good.

 

 

Again, not sure how this is likely to have happened, theories welcomed!

29 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Yes and thats the issue with your watch. 

Detach balance complete and cock.

Remove stud carrier and regulator arm off balance cock and replace properly. 

Next hairspring needs sorting out before instalation

I am not sure if this is the right balance complete, you will find out though.

Do you think the hairspring is salvageable? I was assuming I'd need to replace.

Well here it is... this is toast right? I feel sure I don't have the skill to straighten this out.

[nevenbekriev]

The hairspring is still salvageable. It looks like the bent place is only on the outer coil. But You will need to remove the balance from the cock in order to evaluate the spring condition. The hairspring itself is not replaceable, it is replaced together with the balance wheel as assembly.

[SamLiddle]

And then the problem of the stud holder and regulator which are on the wrong sides of each other:

 

I am baffled as to how this will have happened? 

They can't re rotated into place, the regulator pins stop the spring stud from moving past. I don't think I can remove the regulator and/or spring stud without a staking set? 

[Nucejoe]

2 hours ago, SamLiddle said:

I don't think I can remove the regulator and/or spring stud without a staking set.

No need for special tools.

Loosen stud screw and just push hairpsring stud out of the hole.

 Regulator arm is spring circled around the setting housing, insert cutting edge of a safety blade under it,  opposit ( 180 degrees) to regu arm itself, and pry  half of the circle up, you then see how it all is made at put together. Remove the mobile stud carrier as well,  reinstal in proper order, first goes on the stud carrier, second put the regulator arm on top and press it home.

3 hours ago, SamLiddle said:

Do you think the hairspring is salvageable?

Exactly as nev explained above.

Trueing inner coils is done when balance complete is seperated from the cock.

 

The part thats bent over itself.

1-Unbend hairspring as much as you can when balance is seperated, just grab the hairspring stud in tweezers , grab hairpsring with another tweezers streighten with  strokes as you  move the second tweezers  away from the stud.

2-Move stud carrier and regulator arm as wide/ apart as they go , to provide max space which comes useful in next step.

3- Fit hairspring stud, into stud carrier hole.

4- Put balance and cock ( when attached together) back on mainplate. 

5- You have enough space to grab hairspring in  tweezers to shape as you move your tweezers  away from stud. 

 

 

 

 

Edited 6 hours ago by Nucejoe

[Bonefixer]

I'm no expert, but I'd guess this one is for the bin. Looks like it's been tinkered with by someone armed with a hammer and chisel. When the pallet, escape wheel and balance are all damaged it's beyond repair isn't it? Or a new movement if the watch itself is of value. 

[AndyGSi]

A good learning piece but think for the price of a new movement that's all it is.

Probably just transfer the rotor if it's Citizen branded.

[nevenbekriev]

Of course, donor movement is needed, but the balance/hairspring assembly itself can be saved.

OP, You just have to use tweezers and needle to straighten and two tweezers to untwist if needed to rectify the outer coil. What is seen in the middle may be is because the stud pressed to the spring, but we will need pictures after outer coil rectifying. The regulator and stud carrier are snapp-fitted on the antishock assembly. Lift and pry them together with some sharp tool and they will come off.

Edited 4 hours ago by nevenbekriev

[Nucejoe]

1 hour ago, Bonefixer said:

I'm no expert, but I'd guess this one is for the bin. Looks like it's been tinkered with by someone armed with a hammer and chisel. When the pallet, escape wheel and balance are all damaged it's beyond repair isn't it? Or a new movement if the watch itself is of value. 

 Dr bonefixer are you serious ? 

 A true watch repairer never throws any  scraps  in bin, there are many good parts in OP's watch. 

This has saved me plenty of $ . 

Regs

[SamLiddle]

Many thanks all. I'll have a go at straightening the hairspring, for my practise really. I expect I'll be sourcing a donor movement anyway as I need an escapement and pallet fork anyway.

Will update.

[Nucejoe]

Found this on speedtimerkollekion, I think they ship cheap in Europe.

https://speedtimerkollektion.com/product/182124 

 

[AndyGSi]

42 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Found this on speedtimerkollekion, I think they ship cheap in Europe.

https://speedtimerkollektion.com/product/182124 

I hadn't realised how cheap you could pick one of these up for as my first thought was a new 8205.

@SamLiddle Don't know where in the world you are but you're better dealing with them through eBay.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/57720/i.html?_dkr=1&iconV2Request=true&_blrs=recall_filtering&_ssn=speedtimerkollektion&_oac=1&_nkw=citizen+miyota+8200