Junghans timer movement from Elma super elite help?

[Bigjay]

Hi all, been recommended to pop over to the clock side for some advice.  I have bought a vintage elma watch cleaning machine and on testing the timer, it felt really stiff to wind and sounded like the wheels inside were grinding.  I removed it and having been playing around with it but dare not disassemble it fully as I’m new to watchmaking and am not yet confident enough to tackle this.  I have given it an ultrasonic bath in cleaning solution and rinsed with IPA 99.9% as it was all I had and oiled all the pivots. it now counts down and ticks away nicely, however, i cannot seem to get the wind up motion to free up and it still feels like im forcing it and cant understand why?? Any suggestions??

Edited November 9, 2024 by Bigjay

[AndyGSi]

24 minutes ago, Bigjay said:

i cannot seem to get the wind up motion to free up and it still feels like im forcing it and cant understand why?? Any suggestions??

Not sure what you mean.

As you turn the knob on the front, that's what winds it for the required time to then run down, it's just and egg/kitchen timer.

Edited November 9, 2024 by AndyGSi

[Bigjay]

32 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

Not sure what you mean.

As you turn the knob on the front, that's what winds it for the required time to then run down, it's just and egg/kitchen timer.

When I turn it, it feels stiff and like something is grinding.  I can feel a couple of teeth slipping.  It shouldn’t be so hard to turn.

[AndyGSi]

8 minutes ago, Bigjay said:

When I turn it, it feels stiff and like something is grinding.  I can feel a couple of teeth slipping.  It shouldn’t be so hard to turn.

If you're not confident enough yet to tackle this then you may have jumped the gun with the machine as this is a lot easier than any watch.

Edited November 9, 2024 by AndyGSi

[Bigjay]

Thanks for that.  Maybe easier if you've seen one before and understand how it comes apart and works or to the experienced eye.  Maybe not so much to new people still learning.

[Rixy]

I have found this little youtube where a timer is taken apart and reassembled. The first part looks at the movement before it is taken apart. Part 2 he takes it apart and reassembles it. The winder not only winds the timer spring but also the alarm spring. Maybe it is catching there. It's an interesting puzzle. Sometimes what should be simple turns out to be more challenging than at first glance. Are you going to attempt to take it apart to see where the problem is?

[AndyGSi]

53 minutes ago, Bigjay said:

Thanks for that.  Maybe easier if you've seen one before and understand how it comes apart and works or to the experienced eye.  Maybe not so much to new people still learning.

Just look at it like a big watch.

Let the spring down, remove the top plate, remove and check the gears and pivots for wear and damage.

[Bigjay]

10 hours ago, Rixy said:

I have found this little youtube where a timer is taken apart and reassembled. The first part looks at the movement before it is taken apart. Part 2 he takes it apart and reassembles it. The winder not only winds the timer spring but also the alarm spring. Maybe it is catching there. It's an interesting puzzle. Sometimes what should be simple turns out to be more challenging than at first glance. Are you going to attempt to take it apart to see where the problem is?

Thank you so much for this!  I dont feel so much if an idiot now that this guy is as confused by the movement as I am!  My timer does not wind up as smoothly as his so something is amiss, and the balance seems permanantly fixed to mine so have to be very careful when dissassembling as dont just want the train to fall out.  Gonna find part 2 and study that video a few times before tackling mine as dont want to break or ruin mine.  Thanks again! Jason.

[nevenbekriev]

@Bigjay, This timer is like alarm clock. The difference is the alarm that is turned on in the end of the time the timer counts. But, it is nothing complicated or confusing. If it doesn't wind smooth, then You have to determine where the obstruction is, as it can be in winding the timer spring, or the alarm spring.  So You should separate one from another and try them one by one. This will be possible if the big steel wheels on the front are removed, then the arbors turned in winding direction to check resistance. The construction of spring wheels (first wheels) contains ratchet and click that allows the arbor to be turned in winding direction without the wheel rotation. This is the place where the resistance should be.

Have in mind that waiting for the timer to stop in end position doesn't mean the spring is unwound, as the steel wheels limit the rotation

[rjenkinsgb]

They must have some kind of slipping clutch or ratchet drive between the main shaft and "clock" train, so the winding can be done without forcing the train to run backwards at crazy speeds.

That's the part I'd try to locate and investigate? 

[Bigjay]

On 11/9/2024 at 10:14 PM, Rixy said:

I have found this little youtube where a timer is taken apart and reassembled. The first part looks at the movement before it is taken apart. Part 2 he takes it apart and reassembles it. The winder not only winds the timer spring but also the alarm spring. Maybe it is catching there. It's an interesting puzzle. Sometimes what should be simple turns out to be more challenging than at first glance. Are you going to attempt to take it apart to see where the problem is?

Thank you so much for this!  I dont feel so much if an idiot now that this guy is as confused by the movement as I am!  My timer does not wind up as smoothly as his so something is amiss, and the balance seems permanantly fixed to mine so have to be very careful when dissassembling as dont just want the train to fall out.  Gonna find part 2 and study that video a few times before tackling mine as dont want to break or ruin mine.  Thanks again! Jason.

 

Well, I decided to disassemble it and embark on a journey of discovery….. undid the bolts hold the two plates together and the mainsprings exploded and train wheels fell out!!!  5 hours later trying to rewind and fit the uncontained mainsprings, and align the pivots for the train whilst holding tension until I could fit the alarm mechanism, trying to refit the balance wheel without breaking it and many expletives it is back together and ticking away.  The two silver wind wheels would not come off at all.  Lubricated and still a bit stiff to wind but I am not taking it apart again…. Ever!! Learned a lot about how the mechanism works though so been educational if nothing else!!  

[AndyGSi]

41 minutes ago, Bigjay said:

and the mainsprings exploded and train wheels fell out!!!

First part of instruction was and always is with any watch or clock 'let the spring down'

[Rixy]

Well done on having the courage to have a go. You will have learned a lot from your experience: frustration and expletives are all part of the journey. Andy is dead right about letting the springs down, I remember doing something similar and the thing nearly bit my hand off. Once learned, never forgotten! Your timer is now working better than it was and you are more competent in your hobby. 

[Bigjay]

13 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

First part of instruction was and always is with any watch or clock 'let the spring down'

There was no obvious way of doing that due to the issue with the timer. 

5 hours ago, Rixy said:

Well done on having the courage to have a go. You will have learned a lot from your experience: frustration and expletives are all part of the journey. Andy is dead right about letting the springs down, I remember doing something similar and the thing nearly bit my hand off. Once learned, never forgotten! Your timer is now working better than it was and you are more competent in your hobby. 

Thanks.  Normally i would have let the springs down but there was no obvious way of doing ot due to the issues with the timer.  The two wheels on the top of the plate that wound the springs were stuck fast and not removable. 

[AndyGSi]

2 minutes ago, Bigjay said:

There was no obvious way of doing that due to the issue with the timer. 

They'll be a click most probably on the top main wheel to release the power, similar to this from the YouTube video.

[Bigjay]

1 minute ago, AndyGSi said:

They'll be a click most probably on the top main wheel to release the power, similar to this from the YouTube video.

Sadly there wasn’t.  I’ll send you a photo later.  All that the wheels had were a lug that pressed against the mechanism to set off the alarm and then on the second wheel, a way to extend the length of time for the bell ringing.  No obvious screws, to remove the wheels etc. 

3 minutes ago, Bigjay said:

Sadly there wasn’t.  I’ll send you a photo later.  All that the wheels had were a lug that pressed against the mechanism to set off the alarm and then on the second wheel, a way to extend the length of time for the bell ringing.  No obvious screws, to remove the wheels etc. 

unless i’m missing something, I released everthing I could but these wheels would not budge off the mechanism.  The black alarm stop appears to be on a threaded shaft but would not unwind off of it nor would it pop off iff friction fitted.  I was at a loss as to how to get these wheels off.

[AndyGSi]

The black part circled on the centre wheel looks like the click.

Do you know how to release the click on a watch to let the spring down?

[Bigjay]

2 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

The black part circled on the centre wheel looks like the click.

Do you know how to release the click on a watch to let the spring down?

I do know how to do that and tried it but that black part did not act like a click and did not make any difference as it would simply turn from one side of the post to the other with no discernible change to the spring tension.  It was incredibly tight to turn.

12 minutes ago, Bigjay said:

I do know how to do that and tried it but that black part did not act like a click and did not make any difference as it would simply turn from one side of the post to the other with no discernible change to the spring tension.  It was incredibly tight to turn.

Sorry i think I misunderstood the part your are referring to.  The circled part underneath the centre wheel was fixed and would not budge, it turns with the spindle to put force against the part that protrudes from the hole in the top plate, which is pushed to the opposite side of the hole and releases the alarm bell arm to vibrate against the case.  This arm acts similar to a pallet fork on an escape type wheel on the alarm side of the mechanism and slightly releases the spring on the alarm side for a short time whilst the bell rings.

the black pointer type part on the other wheel appears to increase the duration of the alarm bell ringing and is the bit that made no difference to letting down the spring tension.