1950s Seiko Marvel Balance Staff

[rehajm]

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/seiko-marvel-parts-advice-needed.179963/

...one of the pages I stumbled upon yesterday searching for the banana, it looks like your movement and watch...note the parts lists at the bottom, which helps confirm compatibility...

Edited March 18 by rehajm

[MikeEll]

5 minutes ago, rehajm said:

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/seiko-marvel-parts-advice-needed.179963/

...one of the pages I stumbled upon yesterday searching for the banana, it looks like your movement and watch...note the parts lists at the bottom, which helps confirm compatibility...

thats very useful, thank you

[AndyGSi]

26 minutes ago, MikeEll said:

Andy, the first link looks different to mine, the escape wheel jewel mounting is different.  The second link showing the 1960 Seiko Laurel looks pretty close, although this one has a different balance shock protection than mine.  Just grabbing an image of my dial.

 

I think thats M14017 at the base of the dial.

I wrongly presumed the dial was blank and that's why you were asking the question.

This now raises the question as to which is the correct Hour Wheel

255.392 or 271.570

[MikeEll]

yeah, thanks Andy.  Hope I'm not coming across as ungrateful, I really appreciate the help.  Just that I've been burned before when I've assumed movements look the same

[rehajm]

...and sorry for inserting myself into this thread but for posterity be warned, the lack of reliable information on these older Seikos is a bit maddening. When the movements don't have hallmarks but sometimes have caliber numbers and sometimes shikona and sometimes one name used for more than one movement......

Bestfit tells the story- just look at those calibers...

 

[AndyGSi]

35 minutes ago, MikeEll said:

yeah, thanks Andy.  Hope I'm not coming across as ungrateful, I really appreciate the help.  Just that I've been burned before when I've assumed movements look the same

The fact it has a Marvel Dial and a Marvel Movement means it's a Marvel.

The question is that information on the original Marvels is none existent
and only information on the subsequent movements is available.

I've got a 271.570 Hour Wheel somewhere so will find it and see how it compares to yours.

54 minutes ago, rehajm said:

...and sorry for inserting myself into this thread

Nothing to be sorry about. It's an open forum and anyone can comment.

[AndyGSi]

Hour Wheel 271.570 6mm Diameter with a 1.5mm Boss and 1.35mm High

Cannon Pinion 225.570 2.1mm High

[AndyGSi]

On 3/19/2025 at 9:11 AM, AndyGSi said:

Hour Wheel 271.570 6mm Diameter with a 1.5mm Boss and 1.35mm High

Cannon Pinion 225.570 2.1mm High

@MikeEll just wondered if you'd had chance to compare these yet?

[MikeEll]

Ah, sorry just noticed your reply.  I’ll take a look today.

[MikeEll]

The canon pinion looks the same, and the hour wheel is very close.  Same number of teeth but 1.40mm height.  I’d say probably the same parts.  

[AndyGSi]

30 minutes ago, MikeEll said:

The canon pinion looks the same, and the hour wheel is very close.  Same number of teeth but 1.40mm height.  I’d say probably the same parts.  

I'd say for the price they'd be worth a shot.

[MikeEll]

8 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

I'd say for the price they'd be worth a shot.

Yes definitely, thanks for that

[MikeEll]

I've ordered a couple of those, fingers crossed

 

[MikeEll]

Update, they were a perfect fit.  Nice one.

Thanks @AndyGSi and @rehajm

Edited March 27 by MikeEll

[MikeEll]

Turns out I also need a balance complete for the Marvel.  I discovered a crack in the hairspring collet and so can’t adjust the beat error.  The balance for the 560 (part number 310570) is in stock but not sure if it will fit.  Any idea?

[AndyGSi]

5 hours ago, MikeEll said:

Turns out I also need a balance complete for the Marvel.  I discovered a crack in the hairspring collet and so can’t adjust the beat error.  The balance for the 560 (part number 310570) is in stock but not sure if it will fit.  Any idea?

As they share the same balance staff I think the 560 balance complete would be your best option.

Edit

Are you sure the collect is damaged and it's not just a split one?

Edited May 11 by AndyGSi

[MikeEll]

4 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

Are you sure the collect is damaged and it's not just a split one?

Yeah, it’s definitely cracked.  I could probably glue it, but more trouble than it’s worth.  A new one is £14.

 

[AndyGSi]

Yes, I see now that it's cracked but wasn't sure if you were just referring to the split opposite it.

[MikeEll]

New balance arrived, but unfortunately it was a different size.  The hairspring was pretty close to the original but the watch runs +15 mins per day fast!  I may have to try and repair the original after all.

[AndyGSi]

Is it new and how much difference is there in size?

Also does it have all the screws fitted.

[MikeEll]

Brand new from Cousins.  The balance wheel is a totally different size, too big to fit the movement.  Tried transferring the hairspring to the original balance, hence the rapid gain.  Yes, all screws fitted and the balance setup properly in beat.

[AndyGSi]

So swapping the spring answers why it's so far out.

What's the diameter of the existing balance.

[JohnR725]

59 minutes ago, MikeEll said:

Tried transferring the hairspring to the original balance, hence the rapid gain.

Have you ever noticed in the parts list that the hairspring is not available separately? At least typically not available separately. The reason for that is every single hairspring for the most part was specifically vibrated for the balance wheel it is on. So as you can see moving a hairspring from one balance wheel to another does not necessarily work but 15 minutes is definitely manageable If?

I see the balance wheel has screws? Providing there really screws in other words you could unscrew them then there is a solution to the problem providing they hairspring actually does fit perfectly in the regulators where it's supposed to be etc. for balance wheels that are running too fast that have screws timing washers can be purchased? Okay the much harder to find than the used to be look on eBay typically a find assortments should be easier for wristwatch size versus pocket watch size. The washers go on as pairs one on each side you do not want to have two washers per screw you ideally want to only have one washer. Typically at least the ones I use are rated in one, two and three minutes per day but despite having a this works for the size it's not an exact you have to try them. Than ours with a few timing washers you could slow this thing down here is an image I found online to show you what it looks like. So basically is unscrew your screw but that little tiny washer on and struck back in again and try not to break the screw head off. Lot of time screws it up and played with before the screws do not like the unscrew and will break off that is very undesirable.

Oh and if you would like to get a new skill set you could conceivably find a new collet for your old hairspring carefully unpin it and re-pin it. But that kinda hairspring manipulation is not easy but it could be done.

 

[MikeEll]

Thanks guys.  The replacement balance was way too big to fit the watch movement, my point being that it’s definitely not the correct part for this movement.  The spring was similar dimensions, but clearly not close enough to avoid other adjustements.  Yes, I’m aware that springs are usually sold with the balance wheel complete, but its very often possible in my experience to be able to swap out a spring from one balance wheel to another of the same type.  I tried it anyway as it was there in front of me and easy to do. No harm in trying.

In the end I’ve repaired the cracked collet and refitted the original balance complete, it’s back in business.  Just a shame I couldn’t identify and buy the correct new part, but this model seems to be fairly lacking in parts data.

[JohnR725]

On 3/18/2025 at 6:49 AM, rehajm said:

and sorry for inserting myself into this thread but for posterity be warned, the lack of reliable information on these older Seikos is a bit maddening. When the movements don't have hallmarks but sometimes have caliber numbers and sometimes shikona and sometimes one name used for more than one movement......

Bestfit tells the story- just look at those calibers...

Thinking of best fit did we ever look at fingerprinting this movement?

Then identification of watches? This actually comes up a lot on this group of people especially with older watches thinking they're going to identify some vintage no name whatever and know they're not going to. But even more important books like bestfit only exist to supply spare parts. This means the movement had to have been made in sufficient quantities and exported out of Japan for a company like bestfit to supply spare parts. So simplistic rule would be unless parts were readily available cross reference books to identify it for finding parts will not exist.

One of things I was curious about I went back to the first page and part of the problem is your watches so much older than the one that launched this discussion if you look at the original posting picture it's a screwless balance with a shock protected system yours is much much older. Then of course older also brings up the problem of parts identification books because they were really only made in specific time spans and do not cover an infinite quantity of years unfortunately although bestfit Did have some older books but if I remember right I don't think Seiko shows up even until basically the last of their books because it comes back to they weren't exported out of Japan insufficient quantities for anyone to care about spare parts unfortunately