London? English Twin Fusee Verge Mahogany 8 Day Bell Striking Bracket Clock 1770

[oldhippy]

For members on here that are interested in clocks. Here is a nice example of a good Verge movement that has not be altered in any way. Nice clean photos so you can see the movement and what it is all about.   

Any questions just ask and I’ll try to answer them.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/London-English-Twin-Fusee-Verge-Mahogany-8-Day-Bell-Striking-Bracket-Clock-1770/292766845611?hash=item442a438aab:g:u8kAAOSwGJlZEMd4

 

[Endeavor]

That's indeed a very nice clean movement. Not that I have the cash for it, but it's always nice to learn if the opportunity arises.

Has this clock always had a catgut cord, or was it originally chain driven? Can you see? I've a 1870's dial-clock and the fusee has a rounded "spiral" in it, so I do assume it was meant for catgut, which it currently has.

Is the fusee the only tell-tail with regards to whether it was originally chain driven or catgut cord? And if it was a chain-driven, can one still buy these chains or do you need to source an old one? I guess how these chains were made in the old days is a story on it's own, wasn't it a children's job?

If you feel like to tell about it, I'm all ears ....... !

Edited October 11, 2018 by Endeavor

[measuretwice]

9 hours ago, Endeavor said:

TAnd if it was a chain-driven, can one still buy these chains or do you need to source an old one?

you can make one...:)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lvAqoIr5wSt3AVtjnqIa-tSqvjITK8Fu/view

[oldhippy]

I would say this movement has never had a chain. If you look closely you can see the fine impression on the barrel which looks like gut and not a chain. You are correct in thinking children made them, one of the reasons is children had far better eye sight then mature people of that time. You mention rounded "spiral" that is the fusee. You can still obtain fusee chains. I have seen them on ebay, but they are not new but second hand.

Here is a link showing Sinclair Harding making a chain.

    http://clockmakers.com/fusee-chains.html

measuretwice replied saying you can make a chain. Without the right tools it would be virtually impossible. If you have the skill you can repair them.  

[Endeavor]

@measuretwice & @oldhippy; Thanks both for the info. I's nice to see both the old-way and the more modern-way of making these chains. It's is very nice from Peter Mower to describe in detail how it's done and how to make the tools for it; a labor of love I like to add.

I also like the little YouTube video about the pin-making "Petermann" machine. For some reason I always liked "simple-complexity", solid and last "forever", never mind the exciting smell of oil around them

I used to have a fusee Balloon clock (8 days with strike) and it had, next to a more square groove in the fusee, indeed faint chain markings on the barrel, but it ran on catgut cord ..... All I knew at that time was that 2nd hand chains were expensive and of unknown quality, so I was happy to leave it to run on catgut cord.

I would assume that in those days catgut driven clocks were cheaper and of "lower" quality than the chain driven clocks (?)

 

Edited October 12, 2018 by Endeavor

[oldhippy]

These clocks would be made to order. It would depend on the price. Just like today. Gut would certainly be cheaper then chain.  

[measuretwice]

5 hours ago, oldhippy said:

measuretwice replied saying you can make a chain. Without the right tools it would be virtually impossible.

for sure, but the article does show how to make the tools to make the chain.   You'd have to really want to make a chain, but with that article its doable.  Model engineers sometimes do this, a chain will be needed to scale for some model.  That's where i first came across the piece.

Moot for the clock at hand if it doesn't use them, but I thought it an interesting write up, the only one I ever seen making fusee chain.

It is a very beautiful clock.  My question is around the finish.  Is this original, i.e. maybe lacquered so it stayed bright, or has it been polished?  If polished, I know people have strong views on other antiques, but what about clocks? Is polishing high end antique clocks consider ok or frowned upon? 

 

 

[oldhippy]

Polishing clocks by hand is the correct way to go about it, never ever use a motor that can polish, they are too hard and can and will polish out marks that should be left. Those marks are part of the history of the clock.  So to answer your question certain clocks should be polished.

[Tmuir]

To add to what oldhippy said. I think the term I recently read in the 'Clocks' magazine was restore to 'original finish'.

So if it was originally polished to polish would be correct. If it had a satin or grained finish originally polishing would be wrong.

[Endeavor]

Sorry if I drift away from your initial intention, but i like to grab this learning opportunity if you don't mind .......?

In the mid nineties I bought my Dial-clock in Melbourne, Australia. To learn more about these clocks, I also bought a book about Dial Clocks. The above mentioned bracket-clock is estimated from around 1770. Consulting my Dial Clock book, comparing the pillars it comes up with a pillar design of the 1770 or the pillar from the period 1780-1840. The hands puts the clock around 1780....... according to my Dial-clock book.

But this seems then also to be thru for bracket-clocks ........ !? Which make me wonder about how come ... ?

I know that London was the most advanced in clock making and I guess they did set the design trend. Which hands or pillars to use. Some designs slowly spread to the countryside and therefor they were in longer use than they were in London, hence the dating is often given in a period of years; from then to then.

So my question is; were there, for example with the pillars and hands specialized companies who "mass" produced these and a clock-maker could order these parts from those respective specialized companies? Or, in order to make the pillars & hands identical according to the latest fashion of that specific period, were there reference (latest design / fashion) books floating around which could be consulted by a clock-maker? Same counts for the chains ...... I do assume that they were ordered from a specific specialized company or did each clock-maker made the chains themselves?

Clear to see on the Ben Shuckforth (Diss, Norfolk) clock I did begin this year, that nearly all part were hand-made, but for example the dial ornaments in the corners seemed to be "mass" produced? (perhaps Ben made the hands himself or ordered them ??)

Any idea how that went in those days .......? Did they have a kind of "assembly-lines" for certain clock-parts ....? (was a kind of CousinsUK already around )

 

Edited October 12, 2018 by Endeavor

[oldhippy]

Bracket clocks and Long Case Clocks (grandfather) styles are virtually the same. You are correct in thinking London being the centre of clock making. It took time for what was happening in London to reach out to other parts of the country. The plates including pillars and other parts of the movement would be made under the same roof. Anything to do with the dial would be made at a different place; a case maker would construct the case. With white dial clocks, an artist would paint the dial. The clock maker would know where he could obtain chains for a fusee movement. It was in later time when mass production came into existence that a string of employers would each make one part and at the end of production, you had those that would assemble the movement. Clockmakers would have a catalogue of sorts with drawings to show off their work. You mention the dial ornaments in the corners. These are called spandrels, you also find them in the arch of arch dials, and these were diecast, the style and size of these changed over the years. If I have missed anything just remind me.  

 

A book I highly recommend is White Dial Clocks: The Complete Guide by Brian Loomes

[Endeavor]

Of course if one has studied history, one knows better, but I can only guesstimated in my fantasy how Ben Shuckforth would have ordered those pillars, spandrels and hands. No telephone, no DHL, no PayPal. For me it's even hard to remember how life was in the 60's-'70's-'80's and a part of the nineties before the computer appeared in mass. All I can remember is that the system worked and life was just fine, so I do assume that Ben was happy too with the way things were. I once heard a South African, who lived rural, saying: "we have the time, you guys have watches".

Even though it was off topic, I appreciate the time you took to explain and educate us.

Thank you !

Edited October 13, 2018 by Endeavor

[oldhippy]

No problem. I enjoy doing this it keeps me occupied.

[Endeavor]

Oh well, if that's the case, I have a whole host of other questions ........... no, just kidding

Thanks a lot !

Edited October 13, 2018 by Endeavor

[rodabod]

I'm not sure the hands on the eBay clock are original - the minutes hand looks a bit short.

[oldhippy]

The hands are correct.