Jump to content
Muligans

Help with assembly seiko 6145-8000

Recommended Posts

Hi guys, i was hoping to get some help from the pro's in here.

While assembling my watch i turn the mainspring a little bit for each gear mounted to se that it moves the gears as they should. 

All gears mounted correctly and moves both ways but when i mount the pallet fork the movement will only go backwards and not forward, its like the pallet fork makes the movement seize. 

Does anyone know what can cause this? i tried disassemble and re assembling a million times now and cleaning/oiling it again. Nothing works but its so stramge that it will go backwards but not forward.

thankful for all help i can get.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are you sure you have the pallets the right way and not upside down? If the train is free before fitting the pallets that is where the problem is. Any chance of posting a good clear photo of the movement and pallets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Are you sure you have the pallets the right way and not upside down? If the train is free before fitting the pallets that is where the problem is. Any chance of posting a good clear photo of the movement and pallets.

Thanks for the reply, i will upload a picture and perhaps a video to demonstrate the problem. Just need a couple of minutes. Putting the little one to bed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

Are you sure you have the pallets the right way and not upside down? If the train is free before fitting the pallets that is where the problem is. Any chance of posting a good clear photo of the movement and pallets.

Here we go, a movie and a picture.

https://youtu.be/3s_gha-OOhQ

As you can see the train and palletfork will move backwards but seizes up when trying to push it forward. Dont mind the bare fingers, the movement will be cleaned again and mainspring will be switched also.

 

IMG_20181008_221106.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

Are you sure you have the pallets the right way and not upside down? If the train is free before fitting the pallets that is where the problem is. Any chance of posting a good clear photo of the movement and pallets.

Here is new link for the video, first one turned out really bad in terms of quality.

https://youtu.be/KoOUP1-PEvI

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pushing the power like that through the train and seeing the pallets flutter in such a way makes me think the pallets stones or stone has come loose. So check the pallet stones and make sure they in line with the escape wheel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, oldhippy said:

Pushing the power like that through the train and seeing the pallets flutter in such a way makes me think the pallets stones or stone has come loose. So check the pallet stones and make sure they in line with the escape wheel.

 

Ok, i will check this out in the morning and get back to you. Im guessing this is not supposed to be done to check if everything is in place then hehe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

It would help some background history? In other words what was the watch doing before you first took it apart and what exactly have you done to it?

Well nothing was really wrong with the watch, it was just loosing a couple of minutes every day so i thought a clean and oiling would do the trick. I got everything assembled the first time but failed to mount the seconds hand and something clicked inside the watch when i was trying to push on the seconds hand and the movement seized completely so i picked it apart again and now i have this problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it's an interesting choice of a watch to work on? The unfortunate problem with working on grand Seiko is is there doesn't seem to be a lot of documentation on them. So basically this Is almost in the category of working on a Rolex watch and availability of parts is going to be scarce.

Did you take the mainspring out of the barrel?

Then when pushing second hands on a lot of times the manufacturers recommend supporting the backside.

Then for the escapement this is a 36,000 beats per hour watch and there's possibilities of some differences with the escapement. Usually there's differences with lubrication.

It be nice to see a picture of the pallet fork in the watch close-up and even a picture of the pallet fork.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Muligans said:

As you can see the train and palletfork will move backwards but seizes up when trying to push it forward. Dont mind the bare fingers, the movement will be cleaned again and mainspring will be switched also.

I find your video confusing? When you push the train forward it seizes up except the pallet forks in it's supposed to seize up the pallet fork is doing that. Take the pallet fork out the train will spin fine. If you put the balance wheel in and wind the watch up the way you're supposed to give the balance wheel push does the train and the balance wheel run?

Then I sort of noticed something in your video is too much motion too much moving the movement around some not 100% sure? You might want to remove the upper bridge check the pivots almost looks like one of the wheels was moving around wobbling around not revolving around and I can't tell with the way the watch is being moved around the reflections etc. Then as you heard it undesirable sound pushing the second hand on it's possible that you broke off a pivot. The one of look very carefully to make sure all the wheels still have the pivots in place and just because you see a pivot in the jewel doesn't mean it's where it's supposed to be it may be broken off to you may have to take the plate off to look at the wheels.

Then the pallet fork flittering like that I've seen that before what's happening is its landing on the impulse faces. Usually when the balance wheels in it's not an issue as the balance wheel moves the fork fast enough that it Doesn't land on the impulse face but lands of the walking surface..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, oldhippy said:

Pushing the power like that through the train and seeing the pallets flutter in such a way makes me think the pallets stones or stone has come loose. So check the pallet stones and make sure they in line with the escape wheel.

 

Good morning, i looked over the pallet and was i happy to see you where right!! Pushed the stones carefully back in and now its spinning both ways. Thank you! 

Now i only struggle with a hairspring which i belive is magnetized or a little bit bent. 

Oh well, time will tell if this project is a success or not. Thank you again and hoping its fine if i return with more questions. 

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

I find it's an interesting choice of a watch to work on? The unfortunate problem with working on grand Seiko is is there doesn't seem to be a lot of documentation on them. So basically this Is almost in the category of working on a Rolex watch and availability of parts is going to be scarce.

Did you take the mainspring out of the barrel?

Then when pushing second hands on a lot of times the manufacturers recommend supporting the backside.

Then for the escapement this is a 36,000 beats per hour watch and there's possibilities of some differences with the escapement. Usually there's differences with lubrication.

It be nice to see a picture of the pallet fork in the watch close-up and even a picture of the pallet fork.

 

 

Well, honestly mate its just a random watch and no logic at all behind the choice of watch, i just took what i had lying around as im just starting of. 

Trying to learn by doing and you know i just learned about different lubrication yesterday, boy was i chocked to know that i needed 3-5 different oils and greases! I had just used some ebay (obviously crap) lube all over the watch.

Here we do it the old fashion way of learn by doing hehe. 

Did not open the mainspring yet but will probably try it soon, i just managed to snatch up an old mainspring winders kit on ebay the other day so looking forward to trying it out. Any tips that i could use or must do's and dont's? 

Thank you for your help! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Muligans said:

Trying to learn by doing and you know i just learned about different lubrication yesterday, boy was i chocked to know that i needed 3-5 different oils and greases! I had just used some ebay (obviously crap) lube all over the watch.

Hopefully you're not going to continue to use the eBay oil depending upon what it is? It's really quite amazing what bad oil can do for good watch and none of it is good at all. Then yes I know the sticker shock of buying all those lubricants but the performance differences really critical and they really do last a long time if you properly store the lubricants. Then you getting off easy if you think you only need 3 to 5 different oils and greases.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

Hopefully you're not going to continue to use the eBay oil depending upon what it is? It's really quite amazing what bad oil can do for good watch and none of it is good at all. Then yes I know the sticker shock of buying all those lubricants but the performance differences really critical and they really do last a long time if you properly store the lubricants. Then you getting off easy if you think you only need 3 to 5 different oils and greases.

 

I just searched for watch oil and ended up buying a prefilled precision oiler with slugoil, after some reading i realised it wouldnt cut it so today i ended up ordering some oils from moebius.

Started of with: 8217, 9104, 8200, 9010 and 9415. 

Would you suggest some other oils in addition to these for the toolkit?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

The fault is rght where OH is pointing out, the fork/pallets.

Regards.

Those pallets will get dislocated again upon the first shock or the owners sneeze.

You need to glue the section pallets sit in the fork. If the glue gets to pallet interface with escapement, you pretty well have to navigate through cousins.uk, a lump of glue will cause problem too,  if the lump  hits the fork bridge.

Look this fellow:pulling-hair-out:didn,t pay close attention to what OH said either, he hardly has any hair left.

Regards

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Those pallets will get dislocated again upon the first shock or the owners sneeze.

You need to glue the section pallets sit in the fork. If the glue gets to pallet interface with escapement, you pretty well have to navigate through cousins.uk, a lump of glue will cause problem too,  if the lump  hits the fork bridge.

Look this fellow:pulling-hair-out:didn,t pay close attention to what OH said either, he hardly has any hair left.

Regards

 

 

 

Is there a special glue you would recommend?

I would very much prefer keeping my beautiful mane so any help or recomendations are appreciated!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi there, 

Any glue would do, one you can see through is better,  I use one easy to cut through with a razor blabe when dried. Just so to cut the extra lump for free entery/ exit of the fork under the fork bridge. Extra clearance between the fork and the fork bridge is good to have, allows for possible axial end play of the fork arbor.

Regards joe

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
To secure the pallet stones you normally use shellac. Here are photos of how they should and should not look.

GoodApplicationShellac.thumb.jpg.fdae9e8ec20643775592d9907e775807.jpg
MessyApplicationShellac.jpg.197741f814c7cecbc24748bfa188b143.jpg
Thank you again OH, also i have found out that theres way more rooms in this forum then i initially noticed. I do apologize for putting this thread in the wrong discussion room.

Skickat från min BLA-L29 via Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shellac dose not chemically react with metals, which is why watchmakers commonly used shellac, offcourse it is best, if available.

Main disadvantage of shellac is limiting you to only a few types cleaning fluids.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Nucejoe said:

Shellac dose not chemically react with metals, which is why watchmakers commonly used shellac

Actually shellac has a much much better property then how it reacts with metals. The pallet stones in the escapement have to be in a very exacting position. They make very expensive tools to make sure that they go in very exacting positions. To use those tools usually requires you to heat up the pallet fork several times and that is the advantage of shellac. When it's heated up it softens you can move the stones around back and forth as much as you want and then each time it hardens back up. Glue only works if you know exactly where those stones have to be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Muligans said:

8217, 9104, 8200, 9010 and 9415

These will get you started but You are going to need a couple more. Unfortunately or fortunately depending upon how you look at it I've run out of time right now for answering questions So I thought I just give you a warning of that you're going to require more lubrication. You could make those work but?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×